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Which drone ship for L4?
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Alagos Pahineh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2013-05-26 09:19:52 UTC
I am looking to do L4 missions and settled for a drone ship. Unfortunately, with Odyssey just around the corner, I'm not sure whether it would be best to grab a proper drone boat (Navy Domi) or settle for something a bit more mixed (Fleet Phoon or Navy Armageddon) or perhaps even look at a smaller ship such as Ishtar or Gila. I'd very much like an opinion from other drone users out there on this matter.
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-05-26 09:21:32 UTC
you wouldn't use the new and improved domi, to wreck L4s with perfect hits?

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 
Alagos Pahineh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2013-05-26 09:56:45 UTC
Would it really fare better than Navy Domi?
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#4 - 2013-05-26 10:04:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Dato Koppla
N.Domi would probably be the best but you need to invest a considerable amount in it to make the best of it (deadspace shield tank, faction damage mods for CPU etc). However the new Domi is going to be beastly at missions, here's how I'd fit one for Odyssey:

[Dominix, L4 Cap Booster New]

Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Large Armor Repairer II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II

Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Heavy Capacitor Booster II

Drone Link Augmentor II
350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Tungsten Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Tungsten Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Tungsten Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Tungsten Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Tungsten Charge L

Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Garde II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
Ogre II x5

866dps to 78km optimal with Gardes + Tungsten and 1071 max dps @ 13km with Javelin + Ogres.
430/480/480 tank against Serp/Guri/Sansha and 418 tank against Angels with 4 hardeners (-1 DDA)
Has the spare fitting to drop an Omnidirectional/Target Painter for a 100MN Afterburner II, however fitting an MWD/MJD requires a powergrid implant.

For a T2 fit T1 BS those stats are amazingly good, even beating out some faction boats in terms of dps and projection, also with Omnis and Domis new tracking bonus for Sentries, Sentries have downright amazing tracking, similar to Medium Pulse lasers.

Edit//
Actually I might have borked the math, the Sentry optimal might be lower than that, I assumed that 50% ship bonus brought it up to 45km Garde optimal, then each omnidirectional tracking link module added 1.25/1.2175/1.425x45km (due to stacking penalties, T2 omnis give 1.25x optimal range) cumulatively, but I feel that doesn't make sense? Is it times the base stat for Gardes (30km) or is it times the stat after hull bonus is applied (45km)? I'm bad at math, someone help me please lol.
Rengerel en Distel
#5 - 2013-05-26 14:38:41 UTC
I'd suggest just hopping on the test server and checking it out yourself. They're hoping going to do a new mirror soon, in case you just got some of your skills up.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-05-26 15:51:57 UTC
Alagos Pahineh wrote:
Would it really fare better than Navy Domi?


It's worse. Lower dps. The new bonus isn't helpful.

Just stick with your N. Geddon. 1.1k dps at scorch range, 1.3k at multi range, if you don't want that drone SP getting wasted. No reason to gimp yourself with a domi or n.domi.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-05-26 15:55:59 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Alagos Pahineh wrote:
Would it really fare better than Navy Domi?


It's worse. Lower dps. The new bonus isn't helpful.

Just stick with your N. Geddon. 1.1k dps at scorch range, 1.3k at multi range, if you don't want that drone SP getting wasted. No reason to gimp yourself with a domi or n.domi.


better applied damage at range. You can basically use gardes for every kind of rat except maybe angels and they will wreck everything from 5km to 70km.

Art of Explosions
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-05-26 16:01:38 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Alagos Pahineh wrote:
Would it really fare better than Navy Domi?


It's worse. Lower dps. The new bonus isn't helpful.

Just stick with your N. Geddon. 1.1k dps at scorch range, 1.3k at multi range, if you don't want that drone SP getting wasted. No reason to gimp yourself with a domi or n.domi.


better applied damage at range. You can basically use gardes for every kind of rat except maybe angels and they will wreck everything from 5km to 70km.



Blasters do not have better dmg application at range than scorch. The new bonus doesn't help with dmg application for drones in any significant way. It's a large downgrade from his n. geddon.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-05-26 16:44:40 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Alagos Pahineh wrote:
Would it really fare better than Navy Domi?


It's worse. Lower dps. The new bonus isn't helpful.

Just stick with your N. Geddon. 1.1k dps at scorch range, 1.3k at multi range, if you don't want that drone SP getting wasted. No reason to gimp yourself with a domi or n.domi.


better applied damage at range. You can basically use gardes for every kind of rat except maybe angels and they will wreck everything from 5km to 70km.



Blasters do not have better dmg application at range than scorch. The new bonus doesn't help with dmg application for drones in any significant way. It's a large downgrade from his n. geddon.


you dont fit blasters on a pve domi...

Art of Explosions
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#10 - 2013-05-26 16:52:35 UTC
As usual, you can safely disregard the clueless ramblings of sabre.

.
Kestutis Fujika
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2013-05-26 17:28:31 UTC
What about agro from sentry? Will you be it fine with only 1 TP and cannons?
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-05-26 17:53:24 UTC
Kestutis Fujika wrote:
What about agro from sentry? Will you be it fine with only 1 TP and cannons?

My sentries refuse to die, even if i dc for over 2 minutes.

Art of Explosions
Kirkwood Ross
Golden Profession
#13 - 2013-05-26 20:17:37 UTC
Navy Domi still has the old bonuses. The new Domi is pretty sweet. If you lack tank skills you can fit a micro jump drive and jump 100km away, deploy your sentries and pick off things.
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-05-26 22:23:05 UTC
The optimal/tracking bonus slated for the dominix in Odyssey is a little bit less than the bonus of two T2 omni links. If you currently use three omni links then post-Odyssey you'll be able to use one to get approximately the same performance then use a pair of drone nav CPUs to boost the performance of light and medium drones making them more useful and survivable.

If that's not enough then the lack of a gun bonus means you don't need to feel constrained to using hybrids on the dominix and can use, for example, a few 800mm ACs for that extra bit of turret damage as well as damage variability which might, under some circumstances, end up getting you comparable damage ot the old rail dominix even with its damage bonus. Might.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-05-26 22:28:02 UTC
Shereza wrote:
The optimal/tracking bonus slated for the dominix in Odyssey is a little bit less than the bonus of two T2 omni links. If you currently use three omni links then post-Odyssey you'll be able to use one to get approximately the same performance then use a pair of drone nav CPUs to boost the performance of light and medium drones making them more useful and survivable.

If that's not enough then the lack of a gun bonus means you don't need to feel constrained to using hybrids on the dominix and can use, for example, a few 800mm ACs for that extra bit of turret damage as well as damage variability which might, under some circumstances, end up getting you comparable damage ot the old rail dominix even with its damage bonus. Might.


actually at gal bs V the bonus is MORE than 2 omnis will give you due to stacking penalties not being applied to the hull bonus.

I am still likely to keep 3 omnis on my domi just cause it makes gardes almost godlike.

Art of Explosions
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-05-26 22:47:34 UTC
Shereza wrote:
The optimal/tracking bonus slated for the dominix in Odyssey is a little bit less than the bonus of two T2 omni links. If you currently use three omni links then post-Odyssey you'll be able to use one to get approximately the same performance then use a pair of drone nav CPUs to boost the performance of light and medium drones making them more useful and survivable.

If that's not enough then the lack of a gun bonus means you don't need to feel constrained to using hybrids on the dominix and can use, for example, a few 800mm ACs for that extra bit of turret damage as well as damage variability which might, under some circumstances, end up getting you comparable damage ot the old rail dominix even with its damage bonus. Might.


Still nowhere close to the projection and dps of the n.geddon that he wants it to replace.

It's 1.1k dps@65km, with scorch and sentries match range + tracking and act as a single weapon system, or 1.3k@30km with lower range ammo and sentries. Tracking is good enough to not lose dps down to ~15km.

Domi's unbonused ACs won't have the range or dps, won't match sentries, and act as split weapon systems. They'll stay mostly idle or not hitting much while sentries kill rats.
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-05-26 23:59:59 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
actually at gal bs V the bonus is MORE than 2 omnis will give you due to stacking penalties not being applied to the hull bonus.


Garde II Base Optimal: 24,000m
One T2 Omni: 30,000m
Two T2 Omni: 36,518m
50% Bonus: 36,000m

Garde II Base Tracking: 0.036
One T2 Omni: 0.045
Two T2 Omni: 0.05478
50% Bonus: 0.054

Bonuses are multiplicative, not additive, which is why up to three modules of the same type are often well worth it despite the third module only applying about half its bonus.

Tsukino Stareine wrote:
I am still likely to keep 3 omnis on my domi just cause it makes gardes almost godlike.


Quite. Nearly 1.0 tracking and 70km optimal is great.

sabre906 wrote:
Domi's unbonused ACs won't have the range or dps, won't match sentries, and act as split weapon systems. They'll stay mostly idle or not hitting much while sentries kill rats.


The primary use of fitting something like ACs on a dominix would be to help take care of any frigates within a specific range so that sentries can prioritize on other targets instead. Even at only 213 max rDPS (5 T2 800s, grid issues might prohibit using six, no gyros) they'll have enough damage and range (3km/27km/51km) to take out destroyers and at least T1 frigates while also helping chew through any larger ships that get in close as Serpentis and Angel rats have a tendency to do.

With Garde IIs being able to push 800 DPS at 70km optimal and better tracking than any battleship class gun it's the stuff that gets in close or that's resistant to thermal damage I'd be concerned about hence ACs.

As for how it compares against navy ships I don't much care, honestly. The navy armageddon will clearly be better for specific tasks (as in taking out Blood/Sansha rats), and for long-range kinetic work a navy megathron will probably do at least as good if not better than a standard T1 dominix. Hell, with the way it's shaping up the fleet typhoon with cruise missiles and sentries ought to be pretty nasty as well.

The dominix, however, is quite a bit cheaper, and if the OP is just starting on L4s ship price should be a consideration as he might lose one or two. Likewise the dominix is one of the better battleships for starting out armor tanking and then cross-training to (active) shield-tanking due to its slot layout.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#18 - 2013-05-27 04:41:51 UTC
I love the thought of the raw damage a domi hull can do right now. that said I really don't like fitting the thing. drones means a ton of slots for damage mods, tracking links, and drone links, the rails need nearly as many slots for mag stabs and tracking comps. by fitting drone links you are dropping rail guns. bleh, I just don't like domi fittings, if only it has a dozen more slots. of course with oddesy the standard domi loses a few points imo as that turret damage bonus adds a nice bit of dps, the drone bonus is interesting, but less dps is less dps.

with the current proposed changes a drone only domi really just feels like an afk boat. 78km garde IIs with awesome tracking. hell that is damn near MJD range. on sisi with gal bs 5 and 3x tracking link Is I get a 70km optimal on garde IIs, 78.24km with t2 omnis. (68km with 2 omni IIs, 56.25km with 1, and 45km with no omnis) haha 195km optimal with wardens!

the geddon might be an interesting choice 5 cruise launchers and drones. somewhat similar to the rattlesnake 4 cruise and drones. I think the snake has a slightly better slot layout.

fleet phoon and navy geddon are more focused on their weapon systems with a nice drone bay, I wouldn't really call them drone boats. the fleet phoon is looking pretty good with cruise missiles. the navy geddon should be very good with scorch.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Alagos Pahineh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2013-05-27 07:22:46 UTC
Lots of awesome info in this thread.

Some clarifications might be in order:

sabre906 wrote:
Just stick with your N. Geddon.


I don't have any navy ships just yet. The reason I settled for a drone boat (or more specifically a drone-heavy boat) is that the character is already heavily invested into drones, while I'd still have to get a T2 of any other weapon system. The reason I was looking at navy ships is that I can afford them and I assumed they'd be better than the T1s, though I have to admit that the new Armageddon with drones and missiles taunts me :D

Quote:
actually at gal bs V


I don't see myself getting BS V anytime soon. I'll stick to BS IV for the foreseeable future, so the ship needs to perform well at that skill level.

Quote:
fleet phoon and navy geddon are more focused on their weapon systems with a nice drone bay, I wouldn't really call them drone boats. the fleet phoon is looking pretty good with cruise missiles. the navy geddon should be very good with scorch.


However, Scorch means I need to heavily invest into lasers. I would need 58 days to get large lasers, while I'd only need 28 days to get T2 cruise missiles, which aren't that ammo dependent in the first place. That's why I'm asking for their relative performance before I commit to a second weapon system.
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
#20 - 2013-05-27 09:26:29 UTC
Sabre is either an idiot in regards to Drones or just trolling everyone on every thread about Drones. The Odyssey T1 Domi secondary bonus is SEXXX for Sentries, especially Garde IIs. Having your Gardes with tracking of roughly an unbonused Medium Neutron Blaster but with an Optimal of over 70km is absolutely ridiculous. You should be 3-4 volleying all BS's and 1-shot'ing just about everything else that isn't moving too fast (maybe 2 volleys for elite Cruisers). This is without using a single round of ammo.

Dato's listed fit is basically it, though I'd use Navy Omni's and only (2) [if you're going for armor tank]. I Active Shield tank so that I can use all the lows for dmg with (4) DDA's, (2) MagStabs & a TE. Unfortunately this means dropping (1) more gun down to (4) 350's + DLA + Medium A/B-Type RR (they're only about 65 mil). And unless CCP frees up even the slightest bit more CPU (like 15 or more) then you'd have to downgrade to a Medium Cap Booster, but oh well, it's not game breaking. Also, MJD will not fit even with only (4) 350's due to CPU if you Active Shield tank it so that's something to take into account if that's your play style.

Whether or not the Odyssey Domi will perform better than the RS is really up to how minimum a tank you are comfortable with in LvL 4's. Most you can get by fine with 3-400 tank, some need more but for only a short time, and a few need 1k+. You can always drop a mod or 2 for extra tank on those Missions. The BEST way to complete LvL 4's is push out as much DPS as your ship/mods/skills allow while having just enough tank not to die before they do.

Navy Domi can still work with higher DPS (mostly do to fitting ease) but you're back to mixing weapons. I don't think the NDomi will surpass the Odyssey T1 Domi in completion times do to the sheer r*pe that Sentries will have at absurd ranges, but only time will tell.

The Operative: "There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: "You have no idea how true that is".
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