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cheap ship blobs, the wooden club of pvp?
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Eliniale
Co-operative Resource Extraction
#1 - 2011-09-08 00:41:24 UTC
I have often wondered why many of the fleets you see are small high tech (TII or even TIII) gangs, where a lower tech I gang of bigger size could the same or even better.

Granted a 10 man gang with a logi, some TIII dps, some ewar and maybe a battlecruiser or two can be really effective, but a 15 or 20 man gang consisting of mainly TI cruiser with 75% dps and 25% ewar (generally blackbirds jamming the crap outta everything they see) seems to be doing somewhat less but for a lot less of the price. I'd like to compare it to an expensive rapier and a wooden club, where the rapier is a more elegant method of killing, a club to the had will kill a man just as well, it's just a lot more messy.

Is the reason why this so rarely happens because people want to get every edge they can get, even if it means paying a lot more, or is it an issue where not enough active pilots can help out? Yet training up a bunch of newbie pilots to get into cruiser can't be that hard, and drilling them in fleet mechanics isn't that hard either. Or it may just be that newbies simply never consider that in a group with a good leader they can be quite powerfull. Or perhaps the look of a tech two ship is intimidating tech I pilots into running.

I know there are cheap TI gangs out there, but these seem to be more of an exception, rather than a norm.

I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Also I know we all like to be very blunt, but i would like people to remain civil.

System ideas: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=191928&find=unread
Jude Lloyd
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2011-09-08 00:49:43 UTC
Seriously? T1 blobs are abnormal?

People use specialized small gangs when they want good fights. No one will engage your 50 man Drake blob. Some people might consider a good fight if you're in a 10 man gang of Recons/Hacs/Etc.

Plus T2/T3 ships fill rolls much much better.

I'm back!
Negentig
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2011-09-08 01:13:16 UTC
Also a pretty stupid analogy, I would fight you and your club anyday if i get to use my rapier. Winner gets the girl...
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#4 - 2011-09-08 01:39:06 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
This is strictly my opinion on the matter...


T1 ships are good fun (even when T1 fit). For newbies, nothing is better than stomping on a T2/T3/Faction ship with T1 ships. More than that... a gang that is [almost] entirely made up of cheap ships and equipment is almost certainly going to be the most reckless and bloodthirsty thing you'll come across... because they all know that they are expendable and they don't care about dying... so they all just gun for the target Leeroy Jenkins style (ahhhh... how I miss Arty-Thrasher/Rupture Fleets).

EVE University uses this to it's advantage... fielding a plethora of cheap T1 "crap." This to me serves as an example that I wish would be copied more often (with the exception of the copious amounts of Ewar they also employ... though, I still have to give them credit in that regard as well).

What happens is that once a player begins to get a steady stream of ISK flowing and begins using T2 stuff they notice the advantage that it brings (however small). In small gangs this "small advantage" can count for a lot (especially when others in his/her group are also using similarly "high grade" equipment), allowing a player to bring in fantastic "against the odds" battles.

The problem with all this is that this "powercreep" doesn't stop and it REALLY doesn't scale well with LARGE numbers (I'm talking 50+ on both sides, smaller gangs tend to not be as badly affected). What might start as an advantage of only 10 to 15% between two ships becomes VASTLY bigger once you start pitting all T1 fleets versus all T2.
The only EXCEPTIONS to this in my mind are T1 battleships and Marauders (the latter only gaining nominal combat advantages over its T1 counterparts) and T1 cruisers and Recon ships (the latter becoming HYPER specialized in a certain aspect of combat (Ewar) but remaining otherwise the same).

edit: I also hate the new forums... it eats long posts... more so than the old one. Evil

How did you Veterans start?
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2011-09-08 04:35:45 UTC
Eliniale wrote:
I have often wondered why many of the fleets you see are small high tech (TII or even TIII) gangs, where a lower tech I gang of bigger size could the same or even better.


Because the latter requires more of the only resource that's not readily available: people.

Put it in another way, the question isn't "I have 1.5 bilion ISK, what do I buy to make the best fleet", but "I have 15 people, what should we bring to make the best fleet".
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2011-09-08 10:52:58 UTC
Quite simple really Smile theres lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of isk in eve.... lots.
to the point that although maybe 3or4 times the price, it still isnt particulally expensive to run a t2cruiser fleet

No Worries
Sphynix
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#7 - 2011-09-08 15:50:31 UTC
Goonswarm, didn't they start as 100+ folks in nothing bigger than cruisers?

I'll take 20 clubs to 1 rapier, sure the rapier might kill 5 of my clubs but i've still got 15 left... it's the same issue/argument about cap ships.
If i take my 1 billion carrier, then how come 100 million worth of cruisers can kill it?
Princess Nexxala
Zero Syndicate
#8 - 2011-09-08 16:00:09 UTC
I wish more people would field 15-20 man T1 cruiser fleets. Every time I encounter one I can usually get 4-8 kills before having to bail in my T1 BC...and everyone has fun. Well maybe not everyone...


But seriously T1 BCs are what you are really talking about...they are then workhorse of the fleet and provide the most bang for the buck. T1 Cruiser blobs tend to DIAF.

nom nom
Eliniale
Co-operative Resource Extraction
#9 - 2011-09-08 19:48:35 UTC
Yea TI BC give a nice mobility tank and dps overall, but i like the fight or flight involved with TI cruisers as well, cause with BC gangs, the temptation to start gatecamping is high, which makes it really boring. I prefer moving around a lot.

And i think you are correct that the bonusses start to get more pronounced the bigger the fleets become. still once you hit 50 man fleets, i think you'll mostly see battleships and less TII except some logis

System ideas: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=191928&find=unread
ABrownie
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2011-09-08 20:44:35 UTC  |  Edited by: ABrownie
Wooden clubs are great fun but as someone said you need the manpower to pull it off, but when you do it's priceless.
http://bluerep.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=10211095
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2011-09-08 20:51:56 UTC
I wish there was more pure T1 BC slugfests. Though I'd ike to see a Brutix doing well in these as well.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 
Eliniale
Co-operative Resource Extraction
#12 - 2011-09-09 00:01:33 UTC
yea that massive rifter blobs is a good example, the TIII ships may have taken the field here, iskwise this was a big win for the little guys. And it's exactly these kinds of fights i'd like to see more.

Also brutixes in pvp can work if they stay alive long enough to get on top of the enemy, then it doesn't really matter what that enemy is, since the dps of the brutixes will tear it apart in second, the problem here is the getting in range part, seeing as everyone knows they only work up close, and nearly anything smaller than a bs can easily outrun a brutix that is slowed down by it's armor, so a brutix/frigate tackle combo might work well in 0.0.
In lowsec the gate guns will tear those frigate a new one, so that wouldn't work as well, a cruiser tackle or some speed tanked cyclones and canes with points might even it out, but it depends on staying alive long enough for those brutixes to get in range.

System ideas: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=191928&find=unread
Reva Dantenov
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2011-09-09 00:12:41 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Eliniale wrote:
I have often wondered why many of the fleets you see are small high tech (TII or even TIII) gangs, where a lower tech I gang of bigger size could the same or even better.


Because the latter requires more of the only resource that's not readily available: people.

Put it in another way, the question isn't "I have 1.5 bilion ISK, what do I buy to make the best fleet", but "I have 15 people, what should we bring to make the best fleet".


This. HACs and logi are cheap, and it's easier to fly better ships than it is to get more people in your fleet. You could buy eighty thousand rifters for the price of one titan, but it would be really tricky to find enough people to fly them.

Ponies ponies ponies ponies.
whaynethepain
#14 - 2011-09-09 00:55:06 UTC
Cool theory, I like it, don't know what your on about completely, but an interesting read none the less.

My analology, (no idea how to spell that word) is two clubs beats 1 rapier, numbers are the key mostly.

Getting you on your feet.

So you've further to fall.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2011-09-09 08:25:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Mekhana
Eliniale wrote:
yea that massive rifter blobs is a good example, the TIII ships may have taken the field here, iskwise this was a big win for the little guys. And it's exactly these kinds of fights i'd like to see more.

Also brutixes in pvp can work if they stay alive long enough to get on top of the enemy, then it doesn't really matter what that enemy is, since the dps of the brutixes will tear it apart in second, the problem here is the getting in range part, seeing as everyone knows they only work up close, and nearly anything smaller than a bs can easily outrun a brutix that is slowed down by it's armor, so a brutix/frigate tackle combo might work well in 0.0.
In lowsec the gate guns will tear those frigate a new one, so that wouldn't work as well, a cruiser tackle or some speed tanked cyclones and canes with points might even it out, but it depends on staying alive long enough for those brutixes to get in range.


Why ship down a pilot to an interceptor if you can have another hurricane or drake instead?

Not any different to armor BS fleets. Why bring interceptors for Megas when the Abaddons can just switch to Scorch? Besides Abaddons have better tank and comparable DPS, the list goes on and on.

Not that I'm complaining about the usefulness of interceptors, as I'm a very proud Ares pilot. However Gallente gunboats are too gimped ATM. They are only useful in very certain situations. Why gimp yourself when you can covers more holes by flying something else instead?

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 
Dipluz
Notorious Legion
#16 - 2011-09-09 10:08:47 UTC
All im saying is hurricanes
Eliniale
Co-operative Resource Extraction
#17 - 2011-09-09 11:29:12 UTC
Mekhana wrote:
Eliniale wrote:
yea that massive rifter blobs is a good example, the TIII ships may have taken the field here, iskwise this was a big win for the little guys. And it's exactly these kinds of fights i'd like to see more.

Also brutixes in pvp can work if they stay alive long enough to get on top of the enemy, then it doesn't really matter what that enemy is, since the dps of the brutixes will tear it apart in second, the problem here is the getting in range part, seeing as everyone knows they only work up close, and nearly anything smaller than a bs can easily outrun a brutix that is slowed down by it's armor, so a brutix/frigate tackle combo might work well in 0.0.
In lowsec the gate guns will tear those frigate a new one, so that wouldn't work as well, a cruiser tackle or some speed tanked cyclones and canes with points might even it out, but it depends on staying alive long enough for those brutixes to get in range.


Why ship down a pilot to an interceptor if you can have another hurricane or drake instead?

Not any different to armor BS fleets. Why bring interceptors for Megas when the Abaddons can just switch to Scorch? Besides Abaddons have better tank and comparable DPS, the list goes on and on.

Not that I'm complaining about the usefulness of interceptors, as I'm a very proud Ares pilot. However Gallente gunboats are too gimped ATM. They are only useful in very certain situations. Why gimp yourself when you can covers more holes by flying something else instead?


I merely intended to look for ways a brutix can be used in combat, i didn't disagree with you on any particular point, in fact quite te opposite, i completely argee with your conclusions. But in a way every ship has a drawback, although in some cases the drawback is minor. For instance, the drake has delayed dps, and somewhat less dps than a brutix would have at optimal, however, in return you get an impressive buffertank, and a rather long range, where damage is unaffected but tracking or optimal ranges, but is affected by the signature radious. Same goes for the hurricanes, they have impressive speed, tracking, falloff, near invulnerability to energy warfare (as is the drake) and dps, yet this is generally traded off with high ammo consumption, vulnerabilty to tracking disruption, and somewhat less of a tank.
But in a very distinct way this is what makes pvp in eve interesting counter, and counters against counters. (Although to be perfectly honest i do consider the drake to be somewhat op since short of ECM, nearly no E-war has much effect on it).

System ideas: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=191928&find=unread
Sean Digsel
Kings of Kill
#18 - 2011-09-10 00:13:03 UTC
not everyone wants to blob (or they just don't have the numbers). Your isk probably goes further in a t1 fleet, but if you have 4-5 people and you know you're going to be outnumbered in 90% of fights, you need every edge you can get.


Plus the more specialized ships are generally more fun to fly imo.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2011-09-11 00:39:46 UTC
We killed two supercarriers today with hurricanes so there you go.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#20 - 2011-09-11 05:58:16 UTC
We also like to kill pretty much anything using RIfters,

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
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