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Chimera/Phoenix what's wrong and how can they be fixed?
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Female Achura Stargazer
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-05-24 09:56:35 UTC
Discuss.
Dragonv2
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-05-24 11:09:54 UTC
for the phoenix it'll be rather simple; remove the kinetic damage bonus and replace it with a flat bonus to all damage types. Other wise its it weapon system that needs to be fixed

as for the chimera i dont know much about the problems around it but i do know its a little low on CPU and so could use a bit more

just a note i cant even fly these 2 yet and my comments are based of things ive seen on the forums
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-05-24 11:35:32 UTC
Its not so much they have no problems in themselfs... its more everyone runs armour cap fleets, has armour caps and its not worth changing.

No Worries
Froggy Storm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2013-05-24 12:43:35 UTC
A number of recent threads have been talking about the adaptation lag between armor and shield fleets. In the sub cap world we have already seen some of that shift away from SIG armor fleets to more nimble shield doctrines. But given the time to build and cost of construction/ attrition it is a much slower process for caps.

But (as has been also stated) there have been increased whispers and rumors of chimera fleets being fielded.

As a "sub cap 4 life" kind of player this is all paraphrased from those other threads. However, I still don't see how to over come the slaves vs crystals issues.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-05-24 12:46:06 UTC
citadel torps/cruises are currently awful, combined with the rather limiting hull bonus of the pheonix means it's probably the worst dread.

I've seen chimeras being used in some of the RnK videos but it's mostly of them blowing up so................................

Art of Explosions
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-05-24 14:06:36 UTC
chimera is mostly fine, just needs like, 5% more CPU.
phoenix needs the damage bonus to apply to all damage types.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2013-05-24 20:38:36 UTC
Froggy Storm wrote:


As a "sub cap 4 life" kind of player this is all paraphrased from those other threads. However, I still don't see how to over come the slaves vs crystals issues.


Slaves aren't an issue anymore. An archon+slaves gets about equal hp as a chimera.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-05-25 18:28:32 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
chimera is mostly fine, just needs like, 5% more CPU.


And less cap transfer dependency since it's so easy to disrupt for a ship of this size and value, but it's only my opinion.

Also: since we can't refit anymore using your own fitting service this makes it even less appealing versus Thany or Archon.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Ryuu Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-05-26 07:23:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Ryuu Shi
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
Froggy Storm wrote:


As a "sub cap 4 life" kind of player this is all paraphrased from those other threads. However, I still don't see how to over come the slaves vs crystals issues.


Slaves aren't an issue anymore. An archon+slaves gets about equal hp as a chimera.



er no. I have both carriers and the archon alone has 200 thousand more EHP than the chimera. Now add slaves and you got a heck of alot more EHP for the archon. The problem is that shield caps need something of equal implants as slaves and armor sub-caps needs something of equal implants as crystals.

Until then armor caps are king with slave implants (archons are easier to fit too!)Shocked

_**Noob **_isn't really a status, it's the online equivalent of a 5-year old calling you a poopy fart head.

  • Sun Tzu
Sarah Telestrion
Doomheim
#10 - 2013-05-26 09:10:30 UTC
Ryuu Shi wrote:

er no. I have both carriers and the archon alone has 200 thousand more EHP than the chimera. Now add slaves and you got a heck of alot more EHP for the archon. The problem is that shield caps need something of equal implants as slaves and armor sub-caps needs something of equal implants as crystals.

Until then armor caps are king with slave implants (archons are easier to fit too!)Shocked


Implants are completly irrelevant in large capital-fleets, unless we are talking about supers(which we obviously are not). As the capital-clone is often the same clone used for Rokhs, Abaddons, Maelstroms, etc. you will rarely find Slave-Sets in a Carrier-Pod(still talking about large capital-fleets), just check the killboards.

We might very well see Chimeras used as a defensive tool when it´s about defending POSes, stations and other Sov-Structures. The reason why armor-fleets will still be king on the offensive is because the structure-grind makes you want to bring your super-fleet to finish it quickly and super-fleets are and will be armor for a very long time.
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-05-26 09:25:59 UTC
Female Achura Stargazer wrote:
Discuss.


My guess would be that it's because you can fit a passive tank on the Archon and it'd work great... Not so much the chimaera.

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-05-26 12:34:26 UTC
culo duro wrote:
Female Achura Stargazer wrote:
Discuss.


My guess would be that it's because you can fit a passive tank on the Archon and it'd work great... Not so much the chimaera.



Also this.

At capital size we have nothing compared with Layered plating (+15 or +20% Armor) even if shields are intended to be active tank vs armor buffer tank you still have this awkward thing going on where you can't keep an active tank very long without huge number of grid/cap modules reducing by that much all other fitting possibilities.

I'm not very used to fly my Chimaera on my alt, actually I only use it very little or to just move crap around while I'd most probably rat in if it was a Thany or Archon which is the next goal for my main char if POD prices get reasonable levels.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
TomyLobo
U2EZ
#13 - 2013-05-27 01:27:30 UTC
Capital shield repairers consume more cap than capital armor repairers. This is the case while the archon has a higher base capacitor amount than the chimera; the higher capacitor recharge rate on the chimera doesn't balance things out. Also, the archon can make use of both cap rechargers and cap power relays without having to put up with the penalties. These areas are where the problems lie.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-05-27 02:25:51 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
chimera is mostly fine, just needs like, 5% more CPU.

And less cap transfer dependency since it's so easy to disrupt for a ship of this size and value, but it's only my opinion.

say what?
chimera has the best cap of any carrier so not really sure what youre on about.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#15 - 2013-05-27 03:41:27 UTC
Sarah Telestrion wrote:
Ryuu Shi wrote:

er no. I have both carriers and the archon alone has 200 thousand more EHP than the chimera. Now add slaves and you got a heck of alot more EHP for the archon. The problem is that shield caps need something of equal implants as slaves and armor sub-caps needs something of equal implants as crystals.

Until then armor caps are king with slave implants (archons are easier to fit too!)Shocked


Implants are completly irrelevant in large capital-fleets, unless we are talking about supers(which we obviously are not). As the capital-clone is often the same clone used for Rokhs, Abaddons, Maelstroms, etc. you will rarely find Slave-Sets in a Carrier-Pod(still talking about large capital-fleets), just check the killboards.

We might very well see Chimeras used as a defensive tool when it´s about defending POSes, stations and other Sov-Structures. The reason why armor-fleets will still be king on the offensive is because the structure-grind makes you want to bring your super-fleet to finish it quickly and super-fleets are and will be armor for a very long time.


Implants are not completely irrelevant at the capital level. I'd say they still play a role in WH space capital use. I guess that's where all the pimp fit meta/faction module capitals are as well.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Dato Koppla
Neuronix
#16 - 2013-05-27 03:46:29 UTC
Chimaera can temporarily get more EHP than a Slaved Archon by overheating it's hardeners, even if the Archon overheats it's hardeners as well, if that counts for something.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-05-27 04:59:56 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Sarah Telestrion wrote:
Ryuu Shi wrote:

er no. I have both carriers and the archon alone has 200 thousand more EHP than the chimera. Now add slaves and you got a heck of alot more EHP for the archon. The problem is that shield caps need something of equal implants as slaves and armor sub-caps needs something of equal implants as crystals.
Until then armor caps are king with slave implants (archons are easier to fit too!)Shocked

Implants are completly irrelevant in large capital-fleets, unless we are talking about supers(which we obviously are not). As the capital-clone is often the same clone used for Rokhs, Abaddons, Maelstroms, etc. you will rarely find Slave-Sets in a Carrier-Pod(still talking about large capital-fleets), just check the killboards.
We might very well see Chimeras used as a defensive tool when it´s about defending POSes, stations and other Sov-Structures. The reason why armor-fleets will still be king on the offensive is because the structure-grind makes you want to bring your super-fleet to finish it quickly and super-fleets are and will be armor for a very long time.

Implants are not completely irrelevant at the capital level. I'd say they still play a role in WH space capital use. I guess that's where all the pimp fit meta/faction module capitals are as well.
-Liang

the only implants that have any real bearing on carriers are capacitor implants.
dedicated carrier pilots in WHs will almost always have the 2 genolution implants and both 5% cap implants.

slaves are a waste on carriers in pretty much any situation I can think of tbh.
if youre triage fit, the extra EHP is irrelevant and if youre buffer RR fit, youre going to be in a large scale fleet where it wont make any difference either.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#18 - 2013-05-27 10:46:48 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:

the only implants that have any real bearing on carriers are capacitor implants.
dedicated carrier pilots in WHs will almost always have the 2 genolution implants and both 5% cap implants.

slaves are a waste on carriers in pretty much any situation I can think of tbh.
if youre triage fit, the extra EHP is irrelevant and if youre buffer RR fit, youre going to be in a large scale fleet where it wont make any difference either.


I'd literally never noticed the cap bonus on those Genolutions. That's really nice.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#19 - 2013-05-27 22:05:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Jack Miton wrote:
say what?
chimera has the best cap of any carrier so not really sure what youre on about.

The Chimera could use an extra low slot and some more CPU, as it is pretty much a requirement to have the lows currently filled with faction power relays, which is ridiculous.

There just isn't room for a DCU II either, and using less than 4 power relays doesn't make sense, because of the cap recharge bonus not being stacking penalized but the shield boost penalty is stacking penalized. CPR still reduce the tank, unlike the armor carriers (and using rechargers in the mids). CCP Fozzie also wants to nerf the resist bonus too.

The Chimera also tends to be slow recovering capacitor, which is especially noticeable after jumping and having to jump again; the Chimeras always seem to be last to be ready. Also operating with 10% cap isn't really practical as it is with an Archon. Shield repping is also less energy efficient than armor repping.

Next try to fit a full rack of shield transporters (3 and a local rep is not very practical, which is another reason why the Dominion trailer is wacked). The Archon can have a full rack of remote armor reps.

Thankfully Odyssey will make it trivial to crosstrain other carriers.

The Phoenix woes are its kinetic damage bonus, and citadels not being able to hit moving capitals for full damage. Guess it needs CCP Nozh's target painter:

CCP Nozh wrote:
The new version of the Citadel Torpedo follows the same trend as other unguided missiles. The explosion velocity is slightly higher than that of the Citadel Cruise Missiles (or 2250) which means target painters will have to be utilized in many situations to achieve full damage potential.


For those that forgot the uproar (target painters don't work on supers or sieged dreads): http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/capital-ships-in-dominion/
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#20 - 2013-05-27 22:41:42 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
say what?
chimera has the best cap of any carrier so not really sure what youre on about.

The Chimera could use an extra low slot and some more CPU, as it is pretty much a requirement to have the lows currently filled with faction power relays, which is ridiculous.

There just isn't room for a DCU II either, and using less than 4 power relays doesn't make sense, because of the cap recharge bonus not being stacking penalized but the shield boost penalty is stacking penalized. CPR still reduce the tank, unlike the armor carriers (and using rechargers in the mids). CCP Fozzie also wants to nerf the resist bonus too.

The Chimera also tends to be slow recovering capacitor, which is especially noticeable after jumping and having to jump again; the Chimeras always seem to be last to be ready. Also operating with 10% cap isn't really practical as it is with an Archon. Shield repping is also less energy efficient than armor repping.

Next try to fit a full rack of shield transporters (3 and a local rep is not very practical, which is another reason why the Dominion trailer is wacked). The Archon can have a full rack of remote armor reps.

you dont really fly a chimera do you? the only thing youre right about is that shield tanking takes slightly more cap.
comparing a standard archon triage fit to a standard chimera triage fit:
tank is identical (3 slot tank, same meta level)
cap recharge is identical (+852/s)
both fit 3 remote reps/transfers and 1 cap transfer.

only difference is that the chimera needs to fit 2 meta high slots due to CPU where the archon doesnt.

now, start throwing isk at both, like WH people are want to do, and see what happens.
chimera gets WAY better than the archon with high levels of pimp in all stats.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
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