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Orca and MWD+cloak: what do
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Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-05-22 08:50:33 UTC
Keep in mind that EFT isn't smart enough to automatically calculate the effect of pulsing the MWD - it assumes that a module is either steady-on or steady-off.

@Analt: if you're going for pure tank, instead of the double ACR's (large ACR's are hideously expensive these days), you might consider a Large Core Defense Field Extender and a third hardener in place of the shield extender (optimum choice would probably be either a Thermal or an EM hardener, depending on whether you're more worried about a Brutix gank or an alpha Tornado).

And my rule of thumb has always been that the biggest gank threat to something like an Orca or a freighter comes from a suicide Tornado, which will cost about 100 million ISK and do 10,000 EHP alpha. That comes to roughly 10,000 ISK per EHP, which is probably on the high side, because gankers will often factor in the possibility of salvaging and recovering the suicide ships.

Red Frog doesn't trust their freighters with more than a billion ISK of cargo, so that's probably a good guideline.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#22 - 2013-05-22 08:59:10 UTC
Certainlynot Analt wrote:
Interesting. That's... close enough to be very interesting.

In EFT it comes to a 19.2 sec align time with all 5s and a full Low-Grade Nomad set. 26.2s without the implants. Completely right about the Inertia Stabilizers, by the way.

Have you flown a similar fit yourself, by any chance? I'm really curious how a fit that says 19.2s (instead of ~10s) in EFT can be close to instawarping post-cloak, but I agree that my current Orca fit feels closer to warping post-cloak than it should be according to EFT.


Mate, I thought mentioned it clearly enough that this fit was tested in game. I won't comment on EFT numbers because I'm not totally sure how to read them. What mattered to me was if I was able to escape simulated gate camp.
Certainlynot Analt
Doomheim
#23 - 2013-05-22 20:40:32 UTC
Marc Callan wrote:
@Analt: if you're going for pure tank ... you might consider ... a third hardener in place of the shield extender (optimum choice would probably be either a Thermal or an EM hardener, depending on whether you're more worried about a Brutix gank or an alpha Tornado).


Could you explain this? If I'm facing arty tornados they can pick whatever damage type they like by choosing ammo types, right? A quick search suggests gankers would be using EMP L (EM) or Quake L (explosive).
Silas Shaw
Coffee Hub
#24 - 2013-05-22 23:21:46 UTC
one thing only will i toss into this thread: skill your scout for leadership skills and get that 10% agility boost from skirmish warfare. ;p
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-05-23 07:06:41 UTC
Certainlynot Analt wrote:
Marc Callan wrote:
@Analt: if you're going for pure tank ... you might consider ... a third hardener in place of the shield extender (optimum choice would probably be either a Thermal or an EM hardener, depending on whether you're more worried about a Brutix gank or an alpha Tornado).


Could you explain this? If I'm facing arty tornados they can pick whatever damage type they like by choosing ammo types, right? A quick search suggests gankers would be using EMP L (EM) or Quake L (explosive).


Tornados can choose ammo types, but an Orca's shields will naturally have explosive damage as their peak resist, so figure the gankers will gamble on people leaving the EM shield hole open. If you're using the MWD to warp after a jump, you'll be away before they can reload their guns.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Certainlynot Analt
Doomheim
#26 - 2013-05-23 21:47:19 UTC
Marc Callan wrote:
Tornados can choose ammo types, but an Orca's shields will naturally have explosive damage as their peak resist, so figure the gankers will gamble on people leaving the EM shield hole open.


Makes sense. With Invuln II / Invuln II / EM Ward II the Orca has roughly the same EHP (270k or thereabouts) against all damage types, so I'll stick with that.

Thanks for the advice.
Dark Cloud Dancing
Goldcrest Enterprises
#27 - 2013-05-24 20:11:31 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
Certainlynot Analt wrote:


hmskrecik wrote:
Frillo Teslar wrote:

The mwd-cloak trick doesn't work on an orca as there are no cap sized MWDs.

It does work. Without cap-sized MWD. The trick is, it requires not fitting for max cargo.

There were a couple "it totally works brah" replies like this. If there's someone out there that can instawarp out of cloak, could you actually post your fit?

Here you go: Free Willy. A T1 frigate fitted with 1 or 2 (I don't remember exactly) scripted sebos couldn't get lock on it. Inertia stabs instead of nanofibers proposed in this thread because former don't gimp hull hp and the agility is what actually matters, not speed bonus.


I use 2x Engine Thermal Shielding I rigs instead of the Low Friction Nozzle Joints II (ETS gives 20% extra MWD pulse duration, hence more time to get up to speed before you have to turn off the cloak), but otherwise very similar to Free Willy. I have a 5% agility implant (Eifyr Rogue) and all relevant agility skills maxed out. I confirm the MWD-cloak-instawarp trick works with this fit too; even with extended trips through w-space, me and my Orca have **NEVER** been locked. I agree you have to specifically travel fit to do it - if you fit for tank or cargo it won't work, agility is the key.

Good luck with your experimenting!
DCD
Ginger Barbarella
#28 - 2013-05-24 20:45:08 UTC
Certainlynot Analt wrote:
I'm having a devil of a time getting the MWD+cloak trick to work on my Orca. As I understand it:

  • Align to target
  • Hit cloak
  • Also immediately hit MWD
  • Cancel MWD so it only goes for one run
  • As the MWD is finishing its run, drop cloak
  • Instantly hit warp

I like to think I'm not braindead but I can't get this to work. When the MWD cycle finishes I'm only at about 20 m/s, which is about 25% speed for the Orca, not 75%.

I can compensate by dropping cloak about halfway through the MWD cycle, so I spend some time accelerating really quickly courtesy of the MWD, but that means I spend about five seconds accelerating to warp while uncloaked, pointable, and super-easy to lock because of the MWD.

What am I doing wrong? (This is for hisec hauling.)


Bad troll is bad. 0/10

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-05-24 20:45:32 UTC
Ok so with some sacrifices this is possible, good to know!

Art of Explosions
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#30 - 2013-05-24 21:07:26 UTC
Dark Cloud Dancing wrote:

I use 2x Engine Thermal Shielding I rigs instead of the Low Friction Nozzle Joints II (ETS gives 20% extra MWD pulse duration, hence more time to get up to speed before you have to turn off the cloak), but otherwise very similar to Free Willy. I have a 5% agility implant (Eifyr Rogue) and all relevant agility skills maxed out. I confirm the MWD-cloak-instawarp trick works with this fit too; even with extended trips through w-space, me and my Orca have **NEVER** been locked. I agree you have to specifically travel fit to do it - if you fit for tank or cargo it won't work, agility is the key.

Good luck with your experimenting!
DCD

Interesting concept indeed. Though I'm a bit reluctant to it as increasing MWD cycle increases also exposure while not cloaking (like when warping through calm parts of hisec) and obviously increases time to enter the warp. I'd have to try it myself to see how annoying it is. On the bright side, this solution could give a job to this otherwise almost worthless Zor's implant.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-05-24 21:13:02 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
Dark Cloud Dancing wrote:

I use 2x Engine Thermal Shielding I rigs instead of the Low Friction Nozzle Joints II (ETS gives 20% extra MWD pulse duration, hence more time to get up to speed before you have to turn off the cloak), but otherwise very similar to Free Willy. I have a 5% agility implant (Eifyr Rogue) and all relevant agility skills maxed out. I confirm the MWD-cloak-instawarp trick works with this fit too; even with extended trips through w-space, me and my Orca have **NEVER** been locked. I agree you have to specifically travel fit to do it - if you fit for tank or cargo it won't work, agility is the key.

Good luck with your experimenting!
DCD

Interesting concept indeed. Though I'm a bit reluctant to it as increasing MWD cycle increases also exposure while not cloaking (like when warping through calm parts of hisec) and obviously increases time to enter the warp. I'd have to try it myself to see how annoying it is. On the bright side, this solution could give a job to this otherwise almost worthless Zor's implant.


you dont mwd when trying to warp normally and I think zors only increases AB duration.

Art of Explosions
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#32 - 2013-05-24 22:24:58 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
Dark Cloud Dancing wrote:

I use 2x Engine Thermal Shielding I rigs instead of the Low Friction Nozzle Joints II (ETS gives 20% extra MWD pulse duration, hence more time to get up to speed before you have to turn off the cloak), but otherwise very similar to Free Willy. I have a 5% agility implant (Eifyr Rogue) and all relevant agility skills maxed out. I confirm the MWD-cloak-instawarp trick works with this fit too; even with extended trips through w-space, me and my Orca have **NEVER** been locked. I agree you have to specifically travel fit to do it - if you fit for tank or cargo it won't work, agility is the key.

Good luck with your experimenting!
DCD

Interesting concept indeed. Though I'm a bit reluctant to it as increasing MWD cycle increases also exposure while not cloaking (like when warping through calm parts of hisec) and obviously increases time to enter the warp. I'd have to try it myself to see how annoying it is. On the bright side, this solution could give a job to this otherwise almost worthless Zor's implant.


you dont mwd when trying to warp normally and I think zors only increases AB duration.

Oh my, you are right, this implant affects only an AB...

As to MWD when warping, yes I do it. In my earlier post I stated explicitly, that Orca warps after one cycle ends, which speeds up travel pretty much.
kingchip randchip
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2013-05-24 22:37:40 UTC
Hmm, I know the problem.. You have a lack of plex in your cargo hold... To mwd trick with an orca your going to need to carry AT LEAST 900 plex
CMD Ishikawa
New Eden Public Security Section 9
#34 - 2013-05-26 13:27:58 UTC
I Saw the trick working, and less-than-ten-seconds-warps too, but I was new in the game knew almost nothing, the guy who did it was explaining it to the others in the corp and many of them neither believed nor understanded how to do it.

It will require a lot skill points and isk though.
CMD Ishikawa
New Eden Public Security Section 9
#35 - 2013-05-26 13:29:53 UTC  |  Edited by: CMD Ishikawa
Edit: Double post, sorry.
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