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DED Complex Changes

Author
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
#21 - 2013-05-22 08:34:35 UTC
Roime wrote:
Except they are not designed above else for exploration. They are modular ships and exploration is no more their focus than is combat, RR or EWAR.

Of course they were designed above else for exploration, namely w-space. That their modular structure allows them to be effective in many other roles is undisputed.
Ling Gong Chen
ALL THE LONELY PEOPLE
#22 - 2013-05-22 10:30:56 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:


Are you serious? Are you another of the zealot brigade that wants to nerf the living hell out of high sec in order to "encourage" people to move to low and null to be your target practice? Want to make high sec a newbie only starting place where no one can make decent money? Limit everyone to noobships and T1 frigs?

CCP's already nerfed high sec income multiple times. They removed L5 missions, lowered the amount of mission loot, drastically reduced the amount of salvage materials from wrecks, removed the static plexes, nerfed incursions, etc. Then there are the player driven risk factors like suicide gankers, can flippers, ninja looters, wardecs. The risks vs rewards in high sec are pretty well balanced. Attempting to force people to play the game the way you think it should be played, by making it harder to earn isk in high sec, won't make people move. It will just make them move on to another game. It would also make people like me, who earn money in high sec so we can afford our low sec combat habits, less willing to risk shiny ships since it would be harder to replace them. Sorry, I'm not in one of those big alliances that hands out replacement gear like candy.

Also, how would your idea stop people in low sec from similarly farming the sites?

I doubt CCP will take such a ham fisted approach as the ones you suggest. It would just alienate a bunch of customers that I'm sure they would like to keep happy and paying. CCP is in business to make money. The way they do that is by growing the customer base, not making the game a miserable experience for them and driving them away.


Finally someone realize what's going on right now. All those people who agree with the changes now are definitely not benefit from the old situation and that is why they want changes. Since the beginning they don't earn isk from high sec then how could we expect them to disagree the further nerf in high sec incomes?
I'm taking a wild guess now. CCP is gonna kick all the high sec residences back to mining and lvl 4. Oh by the way, considered the amount of cosmic signature right now I don't think the high sec residences are the only victims. For what I am seeing CCP is also trying to push low sec residences to FW, for they don't have a better way to earn money.
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
#23 - 2013-05-22 16:08:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Noztra Ernaga
Ling Gong Chen wrote:
Oh by the way, considered the amount of cosmic signature right now I don't think the high sec residences are the only victims. For what I am seeing CCP is also trying to push low sec residences to FW, for they don't have a better way to earn money.


What exactly does that mean? Are you telling us that the signature count on SiSi is vastly reduced in high-sec compared to current state on Tranqulity? :(
Ling Gong Chen
ALL THE LONELY PEOPLE
#24 - 2013-05-23 12:32:28 UTC
Noztra Ernaga wrote:
Ling Gong Chen wrote:
Oh by the way, considered the amount of cosmic signature right now I don't think the high sec residences are the only victims. For what I am seeing CCP is also trying to push low sec residences to FW, for they don't have a better way to earn money.


What exactly does that mean? Are you telling us that the signature count on SiSi is vastly reduced in high-sec compared to current state on Tranqulity? :(


Not just in high sec, but the whole universe.
If you ever live as a scanning player you must remember that every day will find tons of wormholes during our path, almost 8 wormholes in 10 systems, but now you could only find 2 or 3. Can you imagine the feeling that I actually missing those wormholes when I flying in SiSi universe?
Molinator Agnon
Oruze Cruise
#25 - 2013-05-23 13:30:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Molinator Agnon
Ling Gong Chen wrote:
Not just in high sec, but the whole universe.
If you ever live as a scanning player you must remember that every day will find tons of wormholes during our path, almost 8 wormholes in 10 systems, but now you could only find 2 or 3. Can you imagine the feeling that I actually missing those wormholes when I flying in SiSi universe?

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Project_Snapshot

there's a lot to read there - but the basic gist is that a snapshot of wormholes across all of high sec space was done, and the predicted number of K162s was much lower than expected - 6.5 stdevs from the expected result using a binomial distribution. it supports the theory that the exit side of a high sec static (from a WH system) doesn't actually materialize until it's scanned down the from the inside*

the reduced number of signatures/WHs on the test server would most likely be explained by this fact, along with the realization that it's unlikely that a wormhole resident would log onto the test server only to stay inside their wormhole, mimicking their routines - they'll likely get to empire to try out the new stuff.

so basically it's just the lack of active wormhole residents scanning down exits to high sec on a daily basis like they do on TQ.

* - the deviation from the expected value on TQ is speculated to be due to the fact that a lot of class 1 wormholes with high sec statics are not occupied, so their exit WHs simply do not appear in high sec at all.
Boltorano
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-05-23 14:34:05 UTC
Lack of signatures on Sisi, especially K162s in k-space is nothing new. Resume normal activity.
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
#27 - 2013-05-23 21:17:38 UTC
Forget about amount of signatures on SiSi, I'd still like some dev word on the original topic of this thread.
Zeradn
Last Cartographers of Abyss
#28 - 2013-05-23 22:58:02 UTC
This change is really saddening. I really love T3s. If they get banned from DED 4s, then only the higher ones will remain. Going to lo-sec and doing DED 5 in a T3 fit with a cloak and probe launcher is near reckless. With two hi-slots gone, you won't have enough dps for most of the higher sites. With omni-tank, you will be too occupied micromanaging the tank to keep alert for hostiles. Also, almost everyone in lo-sec is on the lookout for a juicy PvE-fit T3 kill. Every one from a frig pilot to a BS pilot will try to jump you if they get a chance.

I hope they leave atleast the non-DED combat sites alone. It would be helpful if they bring back the 4/10. 3/10, even though they drop the occasional A-Type mods, were really not suitable for T3 dps levels (talk about op)
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#29 - 2013-05-23 23:57:22 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:

Are you serious? Are you another of the zealot brigade that wants to nerf the living hell out of high sec in order to "encourage" people to move to low and null to be your target practice? Want to make high sec a newbie only starting place where no one can make decent money? Limit everyone to noobships and T1 frigs?


Blinded by your prejudices, bound by your narrow mind?

I want to make hisec safer and more rewarding for new players so they stay in the game long enough to understand it, and emphasize hisecs role as the tutorial area. I'd like new players to see low, null and wormholes as opportunities to experience the sandbox, complete and amazing with all it's intangible rewards, and look forward to the day when they are ready to handle it.

Hisec mechanics are necessary for creating a safe zone for new players who don't yet have any social contacts in the game. However, they also limit the gameplay options available. Operating within these limitations and chasing the rewards familiar from other, different games results in a shallow experience, I'd just like to improve the chances that everybody gets to taste the depth of this unique virtual universe.

Hisec as it is attracts players who want nothing to do with the sandbox, and the rift between this group and the core EVE playerbase is unproductive for everyone. CCP is stuck between their customers, who love their galactic sandbox and desire for more sand and others to build and destroy sandcastles with, and those who want just another generic MMO but with spaceships.

If you want to see low & nullseccers as evil zealots, I can't help you. It's up to you to open your eyes.




.

Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#30 - 2013-05-24 00:03:39 UTC
Rob Crowley wrote:
Roime wrote:
Except they are not designed above else for exploration. They are modular ships and exploration is no more their focus than is combat, RR or EWAR.

Of course they were designed above else for exploration, namely w-space. That their modular structure allows them to be effective in many other roles is undisputed.


No they weren't, Zephyr was the ship designed for w-space exploration. Strategic cruisers were the first manifestation of tech 3, which was supposed to be expanded to other ship classes, and it's main feature is modularity. Scanning subsystem is just one of many.

.

Zeradn
Last Cartographers of Abyss
#31 - 2013-05-24 16:57:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Zeradn
I really don't understand why people always say 'EVE is a sandbox' or 'This is EVE' when they try to tell others that their way should be the only way. Some how they seems to be misunderstanding what a sandbox means.

'Hi-Sec as tutorial area' really made me laugh. Someone just tried to say that we shouldn't live in cities, all of us should live in wildland/desert fortresses. I guess what he meant to say was that roaming around in the wilderness is more lucrative/thrilling. But, that is assuming that every one is here for the fun and thrill of PvP combat. To each, his own. If you remember that small statement, it would reduce at least some of the resentment that low/null sec players hold towards the hi sec 'care-bears'. For the resentment the other way around, people should really have to stop suicide-ganking and griefing. As that is not going to happen (and I am not sure that I want it to happen - something to do with reducing available content), I am not saying anything more on that.

The change to the DED complexes are understandable, but still a bit saddening. Not serious enough to debate so much about. As some one mentioned, if not T3s, then HACs, then something else. But, one has to agree that HACs are nowhere as much fun as T3s. To me, it was instant love when I first read the ship info of tengu. I sold my only mission ship (CNR) to get one. From then on, it was a journey through high, low, null and wh (yeah, like you didn't jump in to a BC when you just had BC lvl 1). I even looked up off peak hours in null systems to be safe. Got jumped once and ran back to high with my then un-replaceable ship. Didn't venture into low with it till I got a replacement. Fun days :)
Ana Xassassin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-05-24 18:21:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Ana Xassassin
i never go to low, null or wh, i don't like it, and i don't write why becouse no one pay me for this,
and i agree with someone here before me, and write why ppl should not go to exploration in low, becouse this almost doesn't exist, 99% are bait pockets, and this will not change
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#33 - 2013-05-25 09:24:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Anabella Rella
Roime wrote:


Blinded by your prejudices, bound by your narrow mind?

I want to make hisec safer and more rewarding for new players so they stay in the game long enough to understand it, and emphasize hisecs role as the tutorial area. I'd like new players to see low, null and wormholes as opportunities to experience the sandbox, complete and amazing with all it's intangible rewards, and look forward to the day when they are ready to handle it.

Hisec mechanics are necessary for creating a safe zone for new players who don't yet have any social contacts in the game. However, they also limit the gameplay options available. Operating within these limitations and chasing the rewards familiar from other, different games results in a shallow experience, I'd just like to improve the chances that everybody gets to taste the depth of this unique virtual universe.

Hisec as it is attracts players who want nothing to do with the sandbox, and the rift between this group and the core EVE playerbase is unproductive for everyone. CCP is stuck between their customers, who love their galactic sandbox and desire for more sand and others to build and destroy sandcastles with, and those who want just another generic MMO but with spaceships.

If you want to see low & nullseccers as evil zealots, I can't help you. It's up to you to open your eyes.


I'm not blinded by anything except for the breathtaking arrogance of people like you. You are a hypocrite and a bigot.

You might want to look up the term "sandbox" as it applies to videogames or, speak to a developer about their intentions for high sec. It was never intended to be just a starter area for newbies to do a few tutorials in and then move on. If that were CCP's intent, they would have made it so.

FYI, I'm heavily involved in faction warfare and have been for years. I also run an industrial production center in low sec for my corporation. I spend as much time in low sec as I do in high. I'm intimately familiar with the mechanics and I've been involved with PVP since I was a newbie so, don't try laying your condescending, moralizing bullshit on me. I don't see everyone who plays in low or null as a zealot, just people like you who hate the fact that someone else who's paying their hard earned money to CCP each month has the audacity to play the game differently than you.

Try getting this through your head; people who want to remain in high sec are valuable paying customers the same as you. Their play style is equally valid. Their choice to play the game in high sec is completely valid. What the hell gives you the right to judge? What gives you the right to decide how others should experience Eve? If someone misses out on "the depth of this unique virtual universe", that's their choice, not yours.

Open your own damned eyes. Quit trying to force your preferences on others.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Ling Gong Chen
ALL THE LONELY PEOPLE
#34 - 2013-05-25 12:07:53 UTC
Roime wrote:


Blinded by your prejudices, bound by your narrow mind?

I want to make hisec safer and more rewarding for new players so they stay in the game long enough to understand it, and emphasize hisecs role as the tutorial area. I'd like new players to see low, null and wormholes as opportunities to experience the sandbox, complete and amazing with all it's intangible rewards, and look forward to the day when they are ready to handle it.

Hisec mechanics are necessary for creating a safe zone for new players who don't yet have any social contacts in the game. However, they also limit the gameplay options available. Operating within these limitations and chasing the rewards familiar from other, different games results in a shallow experience, I'd just like to improve the chances that everybody gets to taste the depth of this unique virtual universe.

Hisec as it is attracts players who want nothing to do with the sandbox, and the rift between this group and the core EVE playerbase is unproductive for everyone. CCP is stuck between their customers, who love their galactic sandbox and desire for more sand and others to build and destroy sandcastles with, and those who want just another generic MMO but with spaceships.

If you want to see low & nullseccers as evil zealots, I can't help you. It's up to you to open your eyes.






That's genius. All those people who stayed in high sec have nothing to do with the whole universe and totally irrelevant to the sand box. I would like to copy these words and post it everywhere.
Oh~~ I see, so you must be one of those people who speak for the CCP and change the direction of consensus.
Ling Gong Chen
ALL THE LONELY PEOPLE
#35 - 2013-05-25 12:29:34 UTC
Seems like no one ever believe what I said about signature reduce. It doesn't matter, I wouldn't expect you to believe everything from my mouth, but at least you should believe your own eyes. I have said more than once to let you try it yourselves. Fly 20 systems randomly and calculate the signatures you meet, all of them, including abnomalies. Then you will understand why I am so insist on this.
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#36 - 2013-05-25 13:04:25 UTC
Ling Gong Chen wrote:
Seems like no one ever believe what I said about signature reduce. It doesn't matter, I wouldn't expect you to believe everything from my mouth, but at least you should believe your own eyes. I have said more than once to let you try it yourselves. Fly 20 systems randomly and calculate the signatures you meet, all of them, including abnomalies. Then you will understand why I am so insist on this.


There are less sigs on Sisi because less players populate the server. The sigs also arn't exactly distributed evenly. Long stretches of nothing and then clusters of sigs in some places. I wouldn't draw any any conclussions for Tranquility from it.

It would have been damn nice tho if CCP had artificialy upped the number of sigs on Sisi so we can actualy test the things. Not waste most our time looking for them.
Tilly Delnero
Doomheim
#37 - 2013-05-25 13:11:34 UTC
Roime wrote:
If you want to see low & nullseccers as evil zealots, I can't help you. It's up to you to open your eyes.

Perhaps if a minority of overly vocal and opinionated low & nullseccers on these forums didn't act like entitled and whiny 'Nerf highsec because those players offend my sensibilities and CCP mechanics won't let me endlessly grief them whenever I wantâ„¢' crybabies, then that opinion of them wouldn't exist. These people also seem to forget that a large number of alts exist in highsec for the express purpose of making ISK in order to fund PvP and other activities on other characters.

The simple fact is that CCP subs increased dramatically since highsec and CONCORD was introduced, something people seem to have forgotten. Before that, EVE was very low population and CCP weren't in a particularly stable place as a company. If you reduce highsec to being completely unprofitable in a ham-fisted attempt to force those people into areas of the game they don't want, then be prepared to see subscriptions plummet and take responsibility upon yourselves for the subsequent loss of revenue and jobs at CCP.

The past is the past, and you cannot force players in a subscription-based computer game to play in a way they don't find fun or at least entertaining. History has shown that with SW:G, if any of you remember that little mistake and the subsequent exodus and eventual closure. The opinions of EVE players really are the biggest threat to the survival of the game and CCP.

Highsec is fine as it is. If lowsec isn't profitable then buff lowsec in some way, quit the constant cries for 'nerf x' - we'll be getting more than enough nerfs in Odyssey without more being thrust upon us. Roll
Ana Xassassin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#38 - 2013-05-25 13:56:58 UTC
don't waste your time here, this is rediculus, i think no one take this serius, when this will be official, then we will talk abut it
Solaris Ecladia
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2013-05-25 19:22:51 UTC
Zeradn wrote:
This change is really saddening. I really love T3s. If they get banned from DED 4s, then only the higher ones will remain. Going to lo-sec and doing DED 5 in a T3 fit with a cloak and probe launcher is near reckless. With two hi-slots gone, you won't have enough dps for most of the higher sites. With omni-tank, you will be too occupied micromanaging the tank to keep alert for hostiles. Also, almost everyone in lo-sec is on the lookout for a juicy PvE-fit T3 kill. Every one from a frig pilot to a BS pilot will try to jump you if they get a chance.

I hope they leave atleast the non-DED combat sites alone. It would be helpful if they bring back the 4/10. 3/10, even though they drop the occasional A-Type mods, were really not suitable for T3 dps levels (talk about op)

This is where you get told to adapt or die.

Welcome to EvE
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#40 - 2013-05-25 20:35:47 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:

Open your own damned eyes. Quit trying to force your preferences on others.


You didn't read a single word, you make up stuff that was not written and you even managed to take it personally, and seem to be quite butthurt.

I didn't mention "forcing" once, I don't hate anyone playing the game differently and I don't value players by the amount they pay monthly however relevant that may seem to you.

Do yourself and look up the definition of sandbox yourself. Maybe you'd realize that sandboxes don't have restrictions on how players can create gameplay. Hisec has restrictions.

Oh and if I was judging, why the hell wouldn't I have the right? Do you think hiseccers have the right to judge suicide gankers and wardeccers- two groups that exist only because of hisec non-sandbox rules.


.