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Dev Blog: Reinventing the Radial Menu for Odyssey

First post First post
Author
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#101 - 2013-05-22 02:41:25 UTC
Huang Mo wrote:
It seems the most requested feature is the ability to turn the radial menu completely off.

Radial menus may look pretty, but if they were good UI design they would have been deployed in a lot of other applications. They are not. In fact, EVE is the only application I can think of that use radial menus.


So don't use it.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

R17a
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
#102 - 2013-05-22 03:02:01 UTC
It's f***ing crap.. It's very f***ing CRAP! Old radial menu - BEST!
electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2013-05-22 04:18:10 UTC
Aw, the positions of the buttons aren't the same as the ones in the current radial menu. That's going to be such a pain to break muscle memory. I thought that was going to be changed. Sure, its not an update to the current radial menu, but a new one; but the buttons that do the same thing can still be in the same place.

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Marcus Aurelijus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2013-05-22 06:09:42 UTC
Never liked radial menu's, never will.
Only thing I think its moderately usefull for is touch screens.
Eve is not really being played on tablets.

Dont let it stop you for developing it for people who do like radial menus...

but for the love of god....how about NOT forcefeeding it like many other features. Keep the right-click overlong menu's
for people who dont mind or actually like them...dont hurt you does it?
Dirk Space
Solar Dragons
SOLAR FLEET
#105 - 2013-05-22 07:15:19 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
Dirk Space wrote:
I am open-minded enough to give it a go but if I don't like it, if it ruins my eve experience like the integrated inventory did, what then?
Thanks for keeping an open mind Smile

We should at least not panic right now Smile
Try it out on Sisi if you guys get a chance. I have checked in the mousebutton binding and delay change, but I am not sure when Sisi will be updated, but probably either tomorrow or the next day.

I have never used the radial menu we have on TQ today, but when I was playing on TQ over the weekend, I was really missing my new radial menu when I was jumping through gates and docking and stuff Smile


Just to confirm I have tried it...

And I liked it.

I updated Sisi this morning and spent some time playing with it.

I know I wont be using it all the time, because of the way I play the game, but how it has been implemented is intuitive but also unobstructive.

Thank you for your work.

Now I need to go and whinge about the scanning changes :P
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#106 - 2013-05-22 07:43:02 UTC
Fitz Muller wrote:
Hey CCP

Can we please please please get an option to turn it off altogether. I'm sure what you are doing to improve it is great but I spent almost all of my time flying with the tactical overly up and zoomed so I can see a range of about 60km in all directions, I am forever turning the camera and accidentally bringing up the radial menu on an item I can't even see and getting the show info window pop up or have the ship tell me it is alligning and I have to stop and then reposition etc.

Thanks
Fitz

I too fly zoomed out, at least to the point that I can see the entire targeting range on the tactical overlay plus a few Km. The only time that I have used the current Radial Menu is accidentally when I'm fine tuning the camera position(normally to avoid looking from inside an asteroid or other Large collidable object), the game thinks that it is a hold when it is not. Most of the time I've forgotten that it even existed and then gone WTF? I didn't tell the game to do that!! (when I actually have because of the radial menu)

I'm also curious as to how long it's going to take to learn the various icons :( I hope that there is at least some popup text to tell which is which.
BleedingAngl
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#107 - 2013-05-22 10:36:28 UTC
thx for making this an optional feature

.

Galmas
13.
Enigma Project
#108 - 2013-05-22 10:48:05 UTC
Before i start going into detail... If it is somehow possible without ruining CCP financially please give us a switch to turn it off. Sorry for being that negative on it right from the start.

It has to be possible to "pre-select" any time critical action, e.g. docking, gate jumping etc... in the radial menu. If this is not possible, e.g. the "jump" option only appears when it is actually possible to jump, then this radial menu is not going to be very useful. I think i don't need to go into detail here explaining why.

Also, please keep in mind that there are many situations where selecting stuff in the 3d space window is almost impossible. Please do not remove any functionality that makes it possible to initiate actions from within the overview window, the fleet window or the watch list.


Valke Murakumo
Perkone
Caldari State
#109 - 2013-05-22 11:19:07 UTC
I personally can't wait to give this a try when it comes! :) It does looks amazing when it was first previewed at the Fanfest
Wanderinlost
Task Force MK7
#110 - 2013-05-22 12:31:40 UTC
Mmmmmmmmm radial menu
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#111 - 2013-05-22 13:42:21 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
Darvaleth Sigma wrote:
Sorry if it's been answered already (tl;dr), but will the old-fashioned right-click menus still have all the same options as now? Or will the ones on the radial menu be forcibly divorced from the right-click menu we all know and love, plunging us into the abysmal depths of despair and destitute mental poverty?

I'm not saying the radial menu won't be a good thing (not at all), but for people who want to keep it as it is (and there will be a lot of them), will CCP support this?

we are not touching the right click menu Big smile


You better not change you mind over leaving the right click menu alone :)
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2013-05-22 14:21:39 UTC
Huang Mo wrote:
It seems the most requested feature is the ability to turn the radial menu completely off.

Radial menus may look pretty, but if they were good UI design they would have been deployed in a lot of other applications. They are not. In fact, EVE is the only application I can think of that use radial menus.



Radial menus have been notoriously difficult to program before. Windows has no native support for them which is why almost no one uses them. There are a lot of user interface elements that haven't been replaced yet but are in fact bad interfaces. Toolbars e.g. fail after a certain scale which is why Microsoft invented the ribbon which has statistically proven better usability than their old toolbar system.

CCP in their presentation on it stated that they had usability studies that showed improved usability for radial menus when the number of items was small. I'm willing to trust those studies. Once the major OS manufacturers provide radial menu support natively you'll see a ton more radial menus. Until then not so much.
Sakhr Otaktay
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#113 - 2013-05-22 14:26:28 UTC
Please let people Choose if they want ot use this or not.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#114 - 2013-05-22 14:53:19 UTC
Shiuri wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
One of the main problems with the current menus that it is too easy to hit the wrong "button" as similar functions are located right next to each other. Similar controls in a radial menu need consistancy in placement, and separation of similar easily confused options.

One of the main problems with the current menus is that it is entirely too easy to click the "wrong" button because buttons that do something entirely different from what you want done are in illogical places, like right next to buttons that do what you want done. This is not changing with the new radial menu. Grouping items that do similar things is natural, scattering them to the four winds is confusing.

Ranger 1 wrote:
If you can't get a handle on the logic of the placement of the nav buttons, perhaps you should stick to the right click menu. It's really not that difficult of a concept.

No ****, right? That's exactly what I said in my OP that you decided to take issue with. How about you just let it go because I'm airing my grievances to CCP in a comments thread. Thanks.

You see, that's the beauty of a forum thread. You are entitled to whine about something just as much as I am entitled to point out how silly it is. Smile

Considering that right click menu's are one of the most complained about elements of the EvE UI, you'll probably have to get used to it. Smile

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Adunh Slavy
#115 - 2013-05-22 16:54:05 UTC
Can you explain this a bit more?

"Navigation options are placed on the 45 degree axis; Align, Warp To, Keep at Range and Orbit. The range of these options depends on the distance of the mouse pointer from the center of the menu. So all ranges can be set in a single motion, their placement is deliberate to minimize errors."

Might be one of those things easier to see than explain, but I can't get on Sisi till the next mirror.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Windle Poons
Ankh-Morpork City Watch
#116 - 2013-05-22 17:08:38 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
Yay, radial menu... let us know what you think :)


You can turn it off, yes? Because I HATE radials. I don't remember the icons so words are always faster, so I want to be able to turn if off completely, as I can already with the current one.
Pon Teyuen
Perkone
Caldari State
#117 - 2013-05-22 17:31:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Pon Teyuen
For the life of me, I can't understand why there's a perception that a 3-layer nested menu consisting of a huge list in which moving the mouse at all in the wrong vector will cause the flyout menu to collapse is considered great UI design. It is FAMILIAR UI design, (as Windows uses it) which is different than "good". You can get used to almost any crap if you use it enough.

Fact is, people are efficient with it not because it is optimal but because a muscle-memory has developed for it. Objectively, for fast-paced situations that is a terrible interface. Of course, it is great that they are keeping that as an option. It is also good for more elaborate menus of choices when its not as time critical.

A lot of the feedback here seems to be along the lines of "I'm used to x, so never ever change x so I don't have to relearn it."

All my prospective suggestions were addressed:

I like the fact that you can access it for items in the overview -- it was going to be my main question/request. It is objectively more motion and clicks, and thus slower, to click on an object in the overview then move upward to go to the contextual panel to perform an action. The only thing this radial menu does in this case functionally is move this menu to under your cursor. Of course, even faster is just hotkey+click on the overview for a function.

The ability to assign a hotkey+left mouse-click to instantly open the menu is ideal and would be better even than the ability to move it to a different mouse button (which is also a needed option, so good that it's there). That allows for no delay, no mis-click of the radial if you don't want it and creates a sort of universal shortcut key. I will be using the radial menu a decent amount, but that feature would make it a staple.

I like very much the ability to drag in a direction to adjust things like orbit distance, warp to range etc. It lets you have a simple button without sub-options yet gives you effectively the same or better choices when selecting it.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#118 - 2013-05-22 18:44:16 UTC
Windle Poons wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:
Yay, radial menu... let us know what you think :)


You can turn it off, yes? Because I HATE radials. I don't remember the icons so words are always faster, so I want to be able to turn if off completely, as I can already with the current one.


The idea with CCP's design is that you don't have to remember the icons so much as the gestures. Once the radial menu is in your muscle memory you won't have to look at all.

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poppeteer
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#119 - 2013-05-22 19:02:20 UTC  |  Edited by: poppeteer
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Can you explain this a bit more?

"Navigation options are placed on the 45 degree axis; Align, Warp To, Keep at Range and Orbit. The range of these options depends on the distance of the mouse pointer from the center of the menu. So all ranges can be set in a single motion, their placement is deliberate to minimize errors."

Might be one of those things easier to see than explain, but I can't get on Sisi till the next mirror.


If you click on the object, say a gate, and go to Warp to you'll warp to the gate at the default range. If however you go past the Warp 'wedge' of the circle, whilst staying in line with Warp, you will see range indicators (graphic and text) increasing up to the maximum allowable for that action. This allows for specification of both the action and a parameter (if you like) within the bounds of the gesture.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#120 - 2013-05-22 19:10:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
poppeteer wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Can you explain this a bit more?

"Navigation options are placed on the 45 degree axis; Align, Warp To, Keep at Range and Orbit. The range of these options depends on the distance of the mouse pointer from the center of the menu. So all ranges can be set in a single motion, their placement is deliberate to minimize errors."

Might be one of those things easier to see than explain, but I can't get on Sisi till the next mirror.


If you click on the object, say a gate, and go to Warp to you'll warp to the gate at the default range. If however you go past the Warp 'wedge' of the circle, whilst staying in line with Warp, you will see range indicators (graphic and text) increasing up to the maximum allowable for that action. This allows for specification of both the action and a parameter (if you like) within the bounds of the gesture.


In other words, when the radial menu is up and you have your mouse over something like the "Orbit Object" part of the circle, a range indicator appears under your mouse.

If you just leave your mouse in place, you'll notice the range is whatever you have set as default.

The further away from the center of the circle you go with your mouse the futher away from the object you orbit, if you move your mouse closer to the center the tighter your orbit will be.

Edit: You're right, it's easier to just look at it than to try to explain it. Smile

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