These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

The Battle of Colelie

Author
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#101 - 2013-05-20 14:49:46 UTC
Cipher7 wrote:


That ally is not a synonym for lapdog.

That we handle our business.


Indeed it isn't, you don't get to make demands and expect the Federation to go "ok" every time.

They handle their business too, their borders, their jurisdiction, their rules.


I believe there is a phrase, deal with it. There's no justification for you breaking CONCORD law in this respect.

None.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Shintoko Akahoshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2013-05-20 14:51:03 UTC
You sure talk a lot, Cypher.

Have you noticed, when you read the news, that Shakor never said anything about the Federation not sharing information about the investigation or the shooter? No, I never noticed that, either. Shakor issued a demand for Midular to be moved to a Republic hospital (which was met) and a demand that the shooter to be extradited (which was not), but he never complained that the Federation wasn't sharing information. I think your complaint here is that the Federation wasn't sharing information with you, and that's an entirely different issue.

Earlier you mentioned that, if the Federation was smart, it would understand the battle in the context which you assume it took place in, otherwise they would lose an ally. Speaking personally, I think the Republic under the Shakor administration has shown exactly what kind of ally it is, and the Federation would be far better off without them.

Here's a bit of context for you: I've despised slavery for my entire life. I've supported the Minmatar Republic. Hell, I've flown with Electus Matari in the past. In the course of one hour-long battle and the very loud justifications for it that followed, my long-term support has been completely lost. I have gone from a supporter of the Republic and a proponent of Federation/Republic relations to what I am now: convinced that the Federation would be far better off without the Republic. I understand your pleas to have the battle considered in terms of its cultural context, but you have to understand all of the context. I am not the only Federation citizen by far to feel this way. That is how bad Colelie was.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#103 - 2013-05-20 15:50:43 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
You sure talk a lot, Cypher.

Have you noticed, when you read the news, that Shakor never said anything about the Federation not sharing information about the investigation or the shooter? No, I never noticed that, either. Shakor issued a demand for Midular to be moved to a Republic hospital (which was met) and a demand that the shooter to be extradited (which was not), but he never complained that the Federation wasn't sharing information. I think your complaint here is that the Federation wasn't sharing information with you, and that's an entirely different issue.

Earlier you mentioned that, if the Federation was smart, it would understand the battle in the context which you assume it took place in, otherwise they would lose an ally. Speaking personally, I think the Republic under the Shakor administration has shown exactly what kind of ally it is, and the Federation would be far better off without them.

Here's a bit of context for you: I've despised slavery for my entire life. I've supported the Minmatar Republic. Hell, I've flown with Electus Matari in the past. In the course of one hour-long battle and the very loud justifications for it that followed, my long-term support has been completely lost. I have gone from a supporter of the Republic and a proponent of Federation/Republic relations to what I am now: convinced that the Federation would be far better off without the Republic. I understand your pleas to have the battle considered in terms of its cultural context, but you have to understand all of the context. I am not the only Federation citizen by far to feel this way. That is how bad Colelie was.


There's no need for the Federation to share intel with me, if the fleet got its orders "from the top" then obviously Shakor wasn't happy with the level of cooperation he was getting, and that has consequences.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you a caldari loyalist?

As a sentient being you have every right to your own convictions and loyalties. But you've lost the right to moral outrage over the circumstances of "your people."

I totally understand and sympathize with the Gallente point of view.

Just saying it's their own govt's fault that it even escalated to this stage.
Evi Polevhia
Chiranjivi
#104 - 2013-05-20 15:58:30 UTC
Cipher7 wrote:

Just saying it's their own govt's fault that it even escalated to this stage.


Maybe Kybernetes is right about you lot.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#105 - 2013-05-20 16:07:43 UTC
Cipher7 wrote:
Just saying it's their own govt's fault that it even escalated to this stage.


Perhaps when you stop trying to always be the victim and claim it's never your fault, you'll be worth further dialogue.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Rioghal Morgan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2013-05-20 16:59:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Rioghal Morgan
Cipher7 wrote:


Three weeks.

Over 3 weeks since the shooting and we STILL have no access to the shooter, no access to raw intel, no access to anything.

What the hell kind of alliance is this?

Are we junkyard hounds only to use during hostilities, but show no consideration otherwise?

Your president needs to start acting like a friend, and he better start real soon.


Three weeks of foolish mishandling by the Federal government justifies the Republic sending in a capital fleet and murdering tens of thousands of their oldest allies' citizens? Are you insane? In what world does a just and honorable ally do this? There's no excuse for such an atrocity and it makes this whole situation even more tragic than it was before the incident in Coleile.

Start acting like a friend? You mean the kind of friend which actually acts like a friend or the kind the Republic is acting like?

Mind you, this is coming from a Gallentean fighting for the Minmatar in the militia wars. Just imagine how much more enraged the Gallente not so deeply invested in this alliance are.
Shintoko Akahoshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2013-05-20 17:54:35 UTC
Cipher7 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you a caldari loyalist?


I wouldn't expect you to understand the subtleties involved. Suffice it to say that flying for Pyre gives me a satisfying opportunity to shoot at the Republic Militia.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#108 - 2013-05-20 17:58:44 UTC
Rioghal Morgan wrote:
Cipher7 wrote:


Three weeks.

Over 3 weeks since the shooting and we STILL have no access to the shooter, no access to raw intel, no access to anything.

What the hell kind of alliance is this?

Are we junkyard hounds only to use during hostilities, but show no consideration otherwise?

Your president needs to start acting like a friend, and he better start real soon.


Three weeks of foolish mishandling by the Federal government justifies the Republic sending in a capital fleet and murdering tens of thousands of their oldest allies' citizens? Are you insane? In what world does a just and honorable ally do this? There's no excuse for such an atrocity and it makes this whole situation even more tragic than it was before the incident in Coleile.

Start acting like a friend? You mean the kind of friend which actually acts like a friend or the kind the Republic is acting like?

Mind you, this is coming from a Gallentean fighting for the Minmatar in the militia wars. Just imagine how much more enraged the Gallente not so deeply invested in this alliance are.


See bold.

No it wouldn't justify that.

But let me ask you this, does a Republic fleet in Federation space justify a Federation "get off my lawn" armed response?

If they showed up and started shooting Fed citizens, I would say that's wrong.

But they sat there, vociferously as they please, demanding access to the suspect.

I'd be interested to know who fired the first salvo.

What I'm seeing in this thread is a tendency towards legalities and technicalities like the Yulai accords, but zero human empathy, zero understanding.

It's like showing up at a friend's house, and they shoot you, and you say it's ok because you're on their property.

Where's the love?

I'm heavily invested in the Federation, haven't been involved in Minmatar politics for a long time. Look at my profile photo, I paid 800 mil for that shirt, you know why? Because I'm a Quafe-a-holic.

It irks the hell out of me, that even after many years of cross-cultural pursuits, mixed fleets, naval execises, a united front - the presence of a minnie fleet still causes Fed citizens to run for the safe-room and hit 911.

These two fleets shouldn't even lock each other, much less shoot.

Why it it that null sov entities set each other blue, but those two fleets weren't blue.
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#109 - 2013-05-20 18:09:20 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Cipher7 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you a caldari loyalist?


I wouldn't expect you to understand the subtleties involved. Suffice it to say that flying for Pyre gives me a satisfying opportunity to shoot at the Republic Militia.


You stated that you were a Republic-Federation supporter until the Coleile incident, which is about 3 weeks after you joined Pyre.

You stated that you were outraged at the deaths of "your people" (whom you now also get to shoot.)

Good luck with the subtleties.
Rioghal Morgan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2013-05-20 18:20:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Rioghal Morgan
Cipher7 wrote:


See bold.

No it wouldn't justify that.

But let me ask you this, does a Republic fleet in Federation space justify a Federation "get off my lawn" armed response?

If they showed up and started shooting Fed citizens, I would say that's wrong.

But they sat there, vociferously as they please, demanding access to the suspect.

I'd be interested to know who fired the first salvo.

What I'm seeing in this thread is a tendency towards legalities and technicalities like the Yulai accords, but zero human empathy, zero understanding.

It's like showing up at a friend's house, and they shoot you, and you say it's ok because you're on their property.

Where's the love?

I'm heavily invested in the Federation, haven't been involved in Minmatar politics for a long time. Look at my profile photo, I paid 800 mil for that shirt, you know why? Because I'm a Quafe-a-holic.

It irks the hell out of me, that even after many years of cross-cultural pursuits, mixed fleets, naval execises, a united front - the presence of a minnie fleet still causes Fed citizens to run for the safe-room and hit 911.

These two fleets shouldn't even lock each other, much less shoot.

Why it it that null sov entities set each other blue, but those two fleets weren't blue.


The Republic fleet fired first on the Federals after yet another attempt to violate our sovereignty and forcefully extradite the shooter. So yes, the Republic is in the wrong there. They entered into allied space and started murdering people when they were denied their request. That's barbaric. Despite the Federals offering several times to allow the Republicans to fall back and cease hostilities, the Minmatar just kept right on murdering allied citizens until the last one of them was put down.

Regarding the "get off my lawn" comment, yes, that's kind of how countries work. When you step over the boundaries of a sovereign state with a large force, they are entitled to respond in kind.

I do agree that it's ridiculous that this situation ever came to this however. It shows an astonishingly large amount of incompetence on the part of both governments.

edit: Here's the link to the report of the battle
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/republic-fleet-force-destroyed-entering-federation-despite-capsuleer-pleas-for-peace/
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#111 - 2013-05-20 18:53:36 UTC
Rioghal Morgan wrote:

The Republic fleet fired first on the Federals after yet another attempt to violate our sovereignty and forcefully extradite the shooter. So yes, the Republic is in the wrong there. They entered into allied space and started murdering people when they were denied their request. That's barbaric. Despite the Federals offering several times to allow the Republicans to fall back and cease hostilities, the Minmatar just kept right on murdering allied citizens until the last one of them was put down.

Regarding the "get off my lawn" comment, yes, that's kind of how countries work. When you step over the boundaries of a sovereign state with a large force, they are entitled to respond in kind.

I do agree that it's ridiculous that this situation ever came to this however. It shows an astonishingly large amount of incompetence on the part of both governments.

edit: Here's the link to the report of the battle
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/republic-fleet-force-destroyed-entering-federation-despite-capsuleer-pleas-for-peace/


That's incredible. I had assumed the Feds fired first.

I am deeply saddened.

If it's alright, I would like to attend Federation day with you all, in solidarity.
Shintoko Akahoshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2013-05-20 19:06:19 UTC
Cipher7 wrote:
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Cipher7 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you a caldari loyalist?


I wouldn't expect you to understand the subtleties involved. Suffice it to say that flying for Pyre gives me a satisfying opportunity to shoot at the Republic Militia.


You stated that you were a Republic-Federation supporter until the Coleile incident, which is about 3 weeks after you joined Pyre.

You stated that you were outraged at the deaths of "your people" (whom you now also get to shoot.)

Good luck with the subtleties.


And yet public records show that I didn't start shooting Republic Militia until after Colelie. Funny, that.

For the record, by the way, I said I was a supporter of the Republic, not a supporter of the Federation. An examination of my past employment records as well as statements made should make that clear.

I understand that you may not "get" how I can be angry in the case of Colelie, yet be satisfied at having worked with State-affiliated agencies. It's really a matter of intent. I've declared my intention to shoot the Federation Militia (and now the Republic Militia). I'm registered with CONCORD as intending to do that. Said militia pilots see me on their overviews with an angry red star. There's no way that they can be surprised by my firing upon them. The Republic Fleet, on the other hand, opened fire on allies (and yes, in answer to your question about who fired first, the Republic Fleet fired first) apparently on a whim. They sidled up to their ally and and slid a knife in their back, and in doing so they lost any moral high ground they may have held.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#113 - 2013-05-20 19:13:52 UTC
1) Before the attack, communications between the Tribal Council and the Federation had been going on for days. Ultimatums were on the table and negotiations had been stopped. By then it was clear to everyone in space that if the situation will not be resolved, it will come to blows - and that certainly includes the Federation.

2) Even if they somehow managed to miss that, the information that the Federation knew the Republic attack was coming leaked to general public hours before the events. They certainly did expect it, even if they did not heed the diplomatic warnings.

3) Therefore, calling this a surprise attack is somewhat exaggerated.
Shintoko Akahoshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2013-05-20 19:23:54 UTC
I never claimed it was a surprise attack. I think everyone involved knew that it would come to blows, as you pointed out. It wasn't a surprise. Unwarranted attack by the Republic Fleet without declaration of war? Yes. Surprise? No.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#115 - 2013-05-20 19:44:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
According to my information, the Tribal Council had negotiated with the Federation for a long time before the events, and that those negotiations had ended unsuccessful. The ultimatums were on the table, from both sides. We have still not (thankfully) seen intent from either side to enter into a state of war. Distasteful as quarrels between allies are, there is much room between perfectly harmonious co-existence and total war.

Elsebeth
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#116 - 2013-05-20 19:53:19 UTC
Zsaryna Adrelana wrote:
But that is EXACTLY what the republic failed to do. You (the Republic) didn't negotiate with the Feds, you just said "Gimme" and when you were met with "no", you promptly displayed behaviour that the parents of all children know all too well. That is, the temper tantrum. Except you didn't bellow "I'm going to scream until I'm sick!" Or stamp your feet or slam doors or wail and scream. You dispatched a dreadnought fleet against the sovereign space of your oldest ally.

The republic failed to negotiate or arrange a compromise, otherwise those Dreadnoughts would have been dispatched quite some time later. But what do I know about these things.



No, Ms. Adrelana. The Republic had been trying to negotiate and arrange a compromise the ever since the Federation's court refused extradition. The Gallente refused all attempts at negotiation and compromise.

And it was hardly an immediate thing. Quite a bit of time had already passed between the denial of extradition and the events at Colelie.

Since I wasn't personally privy to the negotiations, i can't comment on just how thorough and complete they were, but they were going on, and what we have been told so far is that the Tribal Council had determined that negotiation was not going to succeed.
Shintoko Akahoshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2013-05-20 20:54:11 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Distasteful as quarrels between allies are, there is much room between perfectly harmonious co-existence and total war.


Quarrels? I don't think I'd really call Colelie a quarrel. You and I arguing about whose turn it is to wash the dishes is a quarrel. You and I getting into a fist fight over the dishes would not be a quarrel. And any battle in which the death count runs into the tens of thousands is seriously, seriously far beyond a quarrel.

In any case, it doesn't really matter. You and all the other like-minded Republic supporters are going to continue to feel justified for this new page in Republic-Federation relations. You and I, we're never really going to see eye to eye on this. We're just both speaking into the wind here, and I for one am fine with leaving it at that.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

Zsaryna Adrelana
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#118 - 2013-05-21 05:58:20 UTC
Three weeks?
In diplo terms that's barely enough time to get your feet under the table and start eyeing up the aides. Processes like this take months with all kinds of hearings, discussions and intel gathering. Not to mention back room dealings, power playing and agendas of various kinds. Part of this is largely intentional, so that by the time the diplos have made their verdict, the public can be braced to accept an unpopular decision largely because public interest has moved on to other things. Its also so that the diplos can take each other out to dinner and build rapport which can then be used as diplomatic capital when it comes to making agreements not just now but in the future. But in short, three weeks is not enough time for the diplos to do their thing.

I do this for many reasons. I do it because I believe it is right. I do it because I will profit by it. These all consolidate into one reason: I do it because I can.

Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#119 - 2013-05-21 17:17:40 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Distasteful as quarrels between allies are, there is much room between perfectly harmonious co-existence and total war.


Quarrels? I don't think I'd really call Colelie a quarrel. You and I arguing about whose turn it is to wash the dishes is a quarrel. You and I getting into a fist fight over the dishes would not be a quarrel. And any battle in which the death count runs into the tens of thousands is seriously, seriously far beyond a quarrel.

In any case, it doesn't really matter. You and all the other like-minded Republic supporters are going to continue to feel justified for this new page in Republic-Federation relations. You and I, we're never really going to see eye to eye on this. We're just both speaking into the wind here, and I for one am fine with leaving it at that.


I don't think any of us have called the incident justified. I know I won't be unless I hear some compelling explanation from the Tribal Council as to why it was necessary to send a suicide force into Colelie.

Our displeasure with the Federation is the only thing we've stated as justified.
Ragnar STS
Arcane Odyssey
Electus Matari
#120 - 2013-05-22 01:57:13 UTC
Cipher7 wrote:


That's incredible. I had assumed the Feds fired first.

I am deeply saddened.

If it's alright, I would like to attend Federation day with you all, in solidarity.



I would actually believe that the Feds did fire first...just that the Republic's weapons tend to land first.