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Discussion of Emergent Gameplay for Carebears and the interdependence of PvPers and their Prey.
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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2013-05-21 15:34:55 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
People don't understand. Its not supposed to be "Risk versus Reward", its "Bored versus Reward"

Take FW LP whoring. All you do is risk a cheap frigate with warp stabs and a clone with no SP so if you're podded there is no isk loss involved.

You can makes hundreds of millions in a day, but it involved you watching 20 minute timers hours on end per day. I did it for a while, but found it more boring than mining.

Sure you say "But you risk a frigate!" but the rewards are quite more than you get if you were missioning with a battleship.

The real trade off is doing boring tasks for a reward.

Gate camping is an example of this as well. Boring as hell most of the time, but eventualy you get rewarded for doing a boring task.

Also, do you think people would really mine if it didn't pay anything? Its boring as hell.

[edit]

Also there is no risk in ganking. You go into knowing what you are going to lose and if you know the right targets, you know its 100% reward rate. Unless you fail horribly at ganking which I have seen people brag about using hurricanes to kill ventures.

Still there is no risk. Your loss is 100% guaranteed. There is no doubt on the loss of your ship. Thats not risk. That is just expenditures.

Also which also involved the teduium and boredom of hunting the right targets. Not everyone you scan will have a fail miner fit. It takes a while to find targets and there again is an example of boredom verus reward.



I've had quite the threadnaught discussion concerning this very thing in a different thread not too long ago.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#62 - 2013-05-21 15:42:16 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
Capitalism makes everything boring.



TO YOU!!!!

While to other people, the profit is the fun part while the ship-to-ship PvP is a annoying sub-plot that reduces profitability.

There is no "right" way to play EVE, other than in a way that YOU enjoy. And NO, not everyone enjoys the same things.



What would you do with all the isks then? Eventually run 100 accounts? Then what?

Isk is a necessity to afford things to blow up or get blown up.

If you mine to afford a ship, don't buy the ship and keep on mining... to what end?

What does it matter if you have 100mil or 1 trillion isk if you do not spend it? I work at my job so I can afford nice things; car, toys, things for my kids, nice place, creature comforts.

If I won the lottery or was rich and did not need that job to afford those things, I wouldn't work.

Same thing in Eve. If I had the isk to afford battleships to throw away in fleet fights, I wouldn't do active income sources such as mining to afford it.

I'd blow up more spaceships.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2013-05-21 16:13:54 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:


What would you do with all the isks then? Eventually run 100 accounts? Then what?

Isk is a necessity to afford things to blow up or get blown up.


Enjoyment factor is separate from what I do with the ISK after I've earned it.

Making the ISK is fun. Spending it is more fun. I buy BPOs. I buy ships. I give ISK away to friends. I take weeks off when real world gets in the way. I have friends that are trying to achieve a larger goal, and I spend lots of ISK trying to help them with that.



Murk Paradox wrote:

If I won the lottery or was rich and did not need that job to afford those things, I wouldn't work.

Same thing in Eve. If I had the isk to afford battleships to throw away in fleet fights, I wouldn't do active income sources such as mining to afford it.

I'd blow up more spaceships.


If I had a $ billion, I'd still work, it just wouldn't be the job I have now. It would be doing something like programming computer games instead of high performance, big data, probabilistic matching engine for a data warehousing application.

Because you enjoy ship-to-ship PvP, so that is what you do. I do not enjoy ship-to-ship PvP. I enjoy gathering resources, building things, helping other players to achieve goals, building kingdoms and sandcastles.... Ships going boom is just an annoying sub-plot to be avoided while working to achieve my goals.
Ahvram
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#64 - 2013-05-21 17:42:06 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Calgrissom Torvec wrote:
Carebears are the one who actually take the risk in this game. Undocking in ship fitting that are unable to perform PVP and PVE to an acceptable level put them in a place where they cannot defend themselves from pvp pilots and perform PVE combat.
As a pretty much dyed in the wool "carebear", you're wrong. Don't want your PvE ship to explode? don't tank solely for the rats you're fighting, don't be afk, know about game mechanics that let others gain legitimate aggro timers on you, don't fit overly shiny modules, be aware of who the ganking groups are and set them to bad or terribad standings so that they show up differently in local and on the overview, don't cry in chat when you die, ask your opponent where you went wrong and above all don't fly what you can't afford to lose.

Quote:
Ganking is most of the pvp in the game outside of Null and the carebear is always at a disadvantage. Own a freighter or pve BS? 6 trash fit sebo/T2 Gyro tornadoes can pop you with little trouble they don't need tank or acceptable combat fittings . The ganker fleet will be out much less ISK than the lone carebear who has no chance to fight back.
Once again you're wrong, if you're hauling an excessive ISK value in a ship that is made of paper mache then it's entirely on you when you get ganked, the gankers don't determine if a gank is profitable or not, the person being ganked does. I carry no more than 10,000 isk per EHP of my hauler (200,000,000 isk in a 20,000 EHP ship for example) usually less, anything more than that is the equivalent to having a neon sign on the back inviting people to 'splode my arse. Your PvE BS will be fine, as long as you don't fit it with all sorts of shiny crap, attract attention to yourself, do something excessively stupid or undock it during a war.

Quote:
Miner / mission/ freighter ganking has proven this time and time again as if it wasn't profitable and easy to perform it would not happen multiple times every day.
Don't call it easy until you've tried it, a gank squad of destroyers or tier 3 battlecruisers requires organisation, planning, pre planned undocks, concord baiting, scouts who ship scan and a good knowledge of game mechanics, teamwork is pretty much always going to triumph over a solo effort. It happens multiple times per day purely because people take no precautions against it.

Attacking commercial and industrial shipping is the very definition of piracy throughout history, why should it be any different in the future?

Last but not least, consider your ship dead when you undock in it, if you get to dock back up in it, consider that a bonus.


Lets talk about all this Expert planning required to gank a freighter.

1. Sit scout on one side of gate and wait for and easy target

2. Send disposable newb character (Even tho this is against the Eula you all do it) in a noob ship to the farthest side of the system you plan to gank in. As soon as your target takes the gate you pop something with it to pull concord there.

3. Target jumps through gate With all your precision planning your 7-8 sebo/gyro fitted tornados pop target.

Man this sound so difficult.... So much skill timing and planning involved. And average group of pilots could set this up in less than 15 minutes.

And I guess faction/shiny modules are only for you Null bears since your much safer than you average high sec player... I love the logic here.
Dagoth Agahnim
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2013-05-21 17:42:53 UTC
You're really not talking about the playerbase accurately at all OP, sorry. Your definitions seem to assume that everyone is either a 100% carebear or a 100% PVPer, which is hardly true.

I started the game mining, and I still mine half the time, and I only eat rocks and ice in highsec, I gas collect in Highsec and wormholes.

I PVP fairly often now, including cruiser crawls and blops in both low and null. I don't really feed on tears that often, and when I do it's usually the tears of a gate camper or of a noob that falls for a blops bait ship in their Proteus and loses over a billion isk of property in seconds, not carebears.

I mine safely in highsec (keeping aligned to station for the silly highsec miner gankers who have yet to catch me), I take a little risk with gas harvesting, I PI in highsec only, all my assets are kept in highsec, I hire JF's to make deliveries that go through nullsec so I can get my stuff safely, etc. That's not carebear, that's cautious and intelligent. Then when I've got my stuff squared away, I take my ships out into Low and Null and start having fun till I myself get blown up, then I fly my pod back to highsec, pick up the next ship, and go back for more.

Most people I encounter do much the same thing, a bit of everything. I love scanning down anoms and finding WH's to go into for some fun, I love taking my barges and exhumers out to omnom roids, I love afk mining gas, I love following my Noctis along behind lvl4 mission fleets and collecting the goodies, and I love hopping in a PVP Dest/Cruiser/BC/SB for some Low/Null tear feeding.
Lady Areola Fappington
#66 - 2013-05-21 17:54:52 UTC
Ahvram wrote:


Lets talk about all this Expert planning required to gank a freighter.

1. Sit scout on one side of gate and wait for and easy target

2. Send disposable newb character (Even tho this is against the Eula you all do it) in a noob ship to the farthest side of the system you plan to gank in. As soon as your target takes the gate you pop something with it to pull concord there.

3. Target jumps through gate With all your precision planning your 7-8 sebo/gyro fitted tornados pop target.

Man this sound so difficult.... So much skill timing and planning involved. And average group of pilots could set this up in less than 15 minutes.

And I guess faction/shiny modules are only for you Null bears since your much safer than you average high sec player... I love the logic here.



Never ganked, have you?

Number two is wrong, my friend. You can't use a disposable newb char to pull concord. You pull concord by going GCC in a newb ship with the char you plan on ganking.

Also, we've checked, pulling concord is legal. If you think someone is breaking EULA while ganking, petition it.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Robus Muvila
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#67 - 2013-05-21 18:36:01 UTC
These threads always start out so promising, but as usual, are a poo flinging competition by page 2. You all suck. Roll

Side note:You forgot to boast about dropping corps like a pro

LHA Tarawa wrote:

If I had a $ billion, I'd still work, it just wouldn't be the job I have now. It would be doing something like programming computer games instead of high performance, big data, probabilistic matching engine for a data warehousing application.

Because you enjoy ship-to-ship PvP, so that is what you do. I do not enjoy ship-to-ship PvP. I enjoy gathering resources, building things, helping other players to achieve goals, building kingdoms and sandcastles.... Ships going boom is just an annoying sub-plot to be avoided while working to achieve my goals.


TMC Senior Developer http://themittani.com - Because EvE has needed a proper news site for ages
Ahvram
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#68 - 2013-05-21 18:44:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Ahvram
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Ahvram wrote:


Lets talk about all this Expert planning required to gank a freighter.

1. Sit scout on one side of gate and wait for and easy target

2. Send disposable newb character (Even tho this is against the Eula you all do it) in a noob ship to the farthest side of the system you plan to gank in. As soon as your target takes the gate you pop something with it to pull concord there.

3. Target jumps through gate With all your precision planning your 7-8 sebo/gyro fitted tornados pop target.

Man this sound so difficult.... So much skill timing and planning involved. And average group of pilots could set this up in less than 15 minutes.

And I guess faction/shiny modules are only for you Null bears since your much safer than you average high sec player... I love the logic here.



Never ganked, have you?

Number two is wrong, my friend. You can't use a disposable newb char to pull concord. You pull concord by going GCC in a newb ship with the char you plan on ganking.

Also, we've checked, pulling concord is legal. If you think someone is breaking EULA while ganking, petition it.



Right because they pilot that just got podded has the ability to check and see if you pulled concord to the other side of the system. The gank target is usally spamming like hell to warp off because the gank crew tends to have a pod popping frig or destroyer sitting there for some lol.

I love the innocence that ganker imply on the forums. Ive been playing eve for years im not ignorant to what happens. And no you don't need the noob to GCC the target. All it takes to lock a freighter down is a BS with a MWD. Again another free tool gankers have to lock you down just long enough to make it happen.
Lady Areola Fappington
#69 - 2013-05-21 18:57:50 UTC
Ahvram wrote:


Right because they pilot that just got podded has the ability to check and see if you pulled concord to the other side of the system. The gank target is usally spamming like hell to warp off because the gank crew tends to have a pod popping frig or destroyer sitting there for some lol.

I love the innocence that ganker imply on the forums. Ive been playing eve for years im not ignorant to what happens. And no you don't need the noob to GCC the target. All it takes to lock a freighter down is a BS with a MWD. Again another free tool gankers have to lock you down just long enough to make it happen.



Open map. "Ships destroyed in the last hour". "Pods destroyed in the last hour".

I don't know what yer blatting on about regarding prepping concord, but it's really simple.

1. Gank fleet jumps in noob ships. Shoots a POCO, generates one concord spawn per ganker. Dock up, wait out GCC.

2. Gank targets. Dock pods at a different station. While under GCC, undock in noob ships. Concord warps to you to explode you

3. Re-dock in home station, wait GCC, head back out to gank.

For someone who'se been playing for years, you should be familiar with these tactics, and the counters.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#70 - 2013-05-21 23:20:58 UTC
Susurrus Synaesthesia wrote:
How could carebears fight the PvPers in a way that did not involve actually blowing them up?


It might help to use more descriptive terms for each playstyle than "carebear" and "PVPer".

What IS a carebear? How does he/she differ in their approach to the game from a "PVPer"?

My understanding is that "carebears" just place higher emphasis on survival. Carebears are survivalists. "Carebear" is an epithet for "someone who places survival as their highest priority". After all, you don't ever defeat the environment in PVE. You just survive it. Viewed in that way, it's pretty obvious why a survivalist wouldn't put him/her self into a situation where it was simply a roll of the dice whether they survived or not. The acquisition of wealth, the construction of a more resilient vehicle for survival (their spaceship), the minimization of variables they cannot fully control (ex: other people), these are all behaviors of someone who is motivated to survive first and foremost. Other objectives are SECONDARY. They're not afraid to play the game. Survival IS their game. Ever increasing survivability is their objective.

Well, what is a "PVPer"? How does he/she differ in their approach to the game from a survivalist?
DSpite Culhach
#71 - 2013-07-24 06:47:05 UTC
I just recently posted in GD with a link to a plan I had to get some of the group that I know to do something different, that being basically making a private fight club and custom content, and I did that because I kept seeing posts like the OP quite a bit, that try to get players to do things they normally don't, but not because I wanted players to take more "risks", but because I simply wanted them to log on more often and do thing here in EVE, rather then what they do now, which is a little bit of EVE and a ton of Facebook games.

A lot of you seem to miss the point that many people - me included atm - do not find the base EVE combat mechanics all that entertaining, yet we have the problem that because EVE is constantly being upgraded and evolving, we still have to pay for the game, and get a decent spread of SP into many skills, so that when EVE finally DOES inject some content we actually like, we actually have a decent enough skill set to play. I can "level grind" other games, I can't do that to eve.

For example, I would personally love to see structures actually stopping missiles and bullets and laser beams. I think a fight in an asteroid belt or around a station with that mechanic would be awesome, hell, even the ability to eject from a station from more then one exit would be awesome, instead of always ejecting directly into someone's weapons systems.

Ten year old game, with still too many old rules and old mechanics that just get milked over and over.

I don't care how legal and effective gate camping is, it should simply not be possible in an era where we fly starships through deep space, to have a super advanced remote Stargate that is unable to report back and tell me there's 20 Tornado's parked 50Km off to one side that have just killed the last 5 ships flying through, or that make ships appear always inside the radius of a single bubble centered on the gate. Also, seriously? The Stargate can't send a message like "Warning: Bubble on the gate"?. Frak that.

There's a difference between a "harsh" and a "********" universe.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
William Walker
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#72 - 2013-07-24 07:21:25 UTC
You PvP all the time. Docked or undocked. It's only a matter of time until you explode.

ヽ(⌒∇⌒)ﾉ へ(゜∇、°)へ (◕‿◕✿)
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#73 - 2013-07-24 07:34:26 UTC
0/10 troll attempt.

OP doesn't know what a carebear is.
Inokuma Yawara
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2013-07-24 10:10:46 UTC
Vincent R'lyeh wrote:
What this thread needs is more beards


Nah, I think it needs more cow bell....

Watch this space.  New exciting signature in development.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#75 - 2013-07-24 11:59:01 UTC
DSpite Culhach wrote:
I don't care how legal and effective gate camping is, it should simply not be possible in an era where we fly starships through deep space, to have a super advanced remote Stargate that is unable to report back and tell me there's 20 Tornado's parked 50Km off to one side that have just killed the last 5 ships flying through, or that make ships appear always inside the radius of a single bubble centered on the gate. Also, seriously? The Stargate can't send a message like "Warning: Bubble on the gate"?. Frak that.

The stargate feels used and violated each time a ship breaks into it's warp tunnel.

It wants you to die, but unless it's in lowsec/highsec it can't shoot you.... unless you do something naughty. So instead the gates just toss you through and hope you die and don't ever come back.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Jorden Ishonen
Doomheim
#76 - 2013-07-24 12:06:49 UTC
DSpite Culhach wrote:


I don't care how legal and effective gate camping is, it should simply not be possible in an era where we fly starships through deep space, to have a super advanced remote Stargate that is unable to report back and tell me there's 20 Tornado's parked 50Km off to one side that have just killed the last 5 ships flying through, or that make ships appear always inside the radius of a single bubble centered on the gate. Also, seriously? The Stargate can't send a message like "Warning: Bubble on the gate"?. Frak that.

There's a difference between a "harsh" and a "********" universe.


Why the hell would they give a ****? You're an immortal demigod that is essentially a living mile-long piece of metal and care as much about baseliners and we do about ant colonies. What do they care if you lose your cargo, your ship, your clone? Let the capsuleers kill each other, keeps them busy.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#77 - 2013-07-24 12:16:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
DSpite Culhach wrote:


A lot of you seem to miss the point that many people - me included atm - do not find the base EVE combat mechanics all that entertaining, yet we have the problem that because EVE is constantly being upgraded and evolving, we still have to pay for the game, and get a decent spread of SP into many skills, so that when EVE finally DOES inject some content we actually like, we actually have a decent enough skill set to play. I can "level grind" other games, I can't do that to eve.

-snip-

Ten year old game, with still too many old rules and old mechanics that just get milked over and over.



You're exactly the type of person I'm always talking about.

You don't like EVE, but keep playing it because "one day it MIGHT be good". That attitude is what we call (where I'm from), "5 beers short of a 6-pack".

Why does someone who doesn't even like the game play it? I mean really, you're complaining about "having" to pay for EVE because it's evolving and you "need" to have a "decent spread of SP" on the off chance CCP adds something you do like.

Why don't you do both us and yourself a favor and explore one of the hundreds of other games that are out there and find something you actually like, while those of us who actually LIKE EvE can stay here playing out outdated 10 year old game.....




As an aside, I tend to reject "guilt by association". you know, the "the guy is a goon so he must be bad" thing. It's usually not true.

But i'll be damned if I can remember a single CVA poster that wasn't cracked....
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#78 - 2013-07-24 17:55:03 UTC
Combat Jacque
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#79 - 2013-10-09 20:57:32 UTC
DSpite Culhach wrote:
I just recently posted in GD with a link to a plan I had to get some of the group that I know to do something different, that being basically making a private fight club and custom content, and I did that because I kept seeing posts like the OP quite a bit, that try to get players to do things they normally don't, but not because I wanted players to take more "risks", but because I simply wanted them to log on more often and do thing here in EVE, rather then what they do now, which is a little bit of EVE and a ton of Facebook games.

A lot of you seem to miss the point that many people - me included atm - do not find the base EVE combat mechanics all that entertaining, yet we have the problem that because EVE is constantly being upgraded and evolving, we still have to pay for the game, and get a decent spread of SP into many skills, so that when EVE finally DOES inject some content we actually like, we actually have a decent enough skill set to play. I can "level grind" other games, I can't do that to eve.

For example, I would personally love to see structures actually stopping missiles and bullets and laser beams. I think a fight in an asteroid belt or around a station with that mechanic would be awesome, hell, even the ability to eject from a station from more then one exit would be awesome, instead of always ejecting directly into someone's weapons systems.

Ten year old game, with still too many old rules and old mechanics that just get milked over and over.

I don't care how legal and effective gate camping is, it should simply not be possible in an era where we fly starships through deep space, to have a super advanced remote Stargate that is unable to report back and tell me there's 20 Tornado's parked 50Km off to one side that have just killed the last 5 ships flying through, or that make ships appear always inside the radius of a single bubble centered on the gate. Also, seriously? The Stargate can't send a message like "Warning: Bubble on the gate"?. Frak that.

There's a difference between a "harsh" and a "********" universe.


Maybe you should find a game you like.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#80 - 2013-10-09 21:17:11 UTC
Quote:
There are also likely carebears who play the game in their limited free time, enjoy some of its less adrenaline motivated aspects and who truly like playing a game without any risks.


Those people are wrong. They should in fact, quit this game and go crowdfund Star Citizen or X Rebirth or some other single player game.

The rest of us can continue to play our MMO where we aren't allowed to bury our heads in the sand and pretend other people don't exist.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.