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Amarr desperately needs new crystals with other damage types
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Delirium Cordia
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-05-20 21:03:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Delirium Cordia
Amarr race always suffered due to restriction to EM/Thermal damage. Well, Amarr can use rockets with all varieties of damage as well, but do they have lots of dedicated ships for this? Usuwally the enemy thinks: "let's tank EM / thermal and we should be fine." Damage type restriction on laser weapons makes some difficulties with missions too.

Introducing new line of frequency crystals would be a good move, for example 50% Kin / 40% Therm / 10% EM

Why not explosive damage? Well, laser may interfere with shields by exploding (any fans of Frank Herbert's Dune series?), but it's hard to explain why beam explodes on impact with armor Roll Kinetic damage sounds much more reliably (heavily focused beam which projects some kinetic energy as a result). Anyway CCP are wise guys, they could manage to make a whole story about inventing new frequency crystals.

So, any thoughts?
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#2 - 2013-05-20 21:09:20 UTC
I would argue YES, but I don't. Here's why:

Through recent changes and advancements, only about 60% of Amarr ships are incapable of doing other damage types. Why 60%? Because the other 40% have been given large drone bays, launcher hardpoints, and in many cases, simply no weapon bonus at all, making the use of autocannons and artillery far better an option.

We've been granted the ability to diversify quite well. Adding more versatility in our damage capabilities at this point would almost completely throw the developer reasoning for converting so many Amarr assets into amalgamations of Gallente or Caldari ships, that it would create fire and brimstone on a threadpocalypse level.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#3 - 2013-05-20 21:19:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Damage types are sorted as per "what he said".

What we need is tracking .. lots and lots of tracking. All crystals should have a tracking bonus so that we have the option of sacrificing dps for the ability to actually apply dps (ie. same as is done with projectile ammo) .. we are screwed for cap anyway so might as well get rid of the never-used reduction on crystals while we are at it (all calcs are made using MF/Scorch which have no reduction so zero loss on the whole).
Delirium Cordia
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-05-20 21:21:05 UTC
Interesting point of view, Ruze. Especially the second part.

But there should be something done about laser weaponry and I fear that suggested changes for Odyssey simply wont make it.
Iudicium Vastus
Doomheim
#5 - 2013-05-20 21:25:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Iudicium Vastus
I think Kin/Exp damaging crystals would be a bit out of place. It does kinda suck that energy turrets are limited to Em/Therm types, but also looking at Gallente, they're limited to Kin/Therm in the hybrid turrets, with a few T2 ships granting bonuses to missiles.

What Amarr do need while maintaining sense is a Thermal heavy crystal. Some of the damage ratios of crystals are roughly 50/50 in Em/Therm and then just skew quite heavy into the Em side of the scale beyond that, with none having a Therm leaning at all. A crystal that does a huge amount of thermal damage of a close range/high damage variety would be nice.

We Amarr pilots have EM heavy options to shoot at shields, but what about a Thermal heavy version for hitting armor?

[u]Nerf stabs/cloaks in FW?[/u] No, just.. -Fit more points -Fit faction points -Bring a friend or two with points (an alt is fine too)
Delirium Cordia
Doomheim
#6 - 2013-05-20 21:30:22 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:


What we need is tracking .. lots and lots of tracking. All crystals should have a tracking bonus so that we have the option of sacrificing dps for the ability to actually apply dps (ie. same as is done with projectile ammo) ..

I must admit that you have a point.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#7 - 2013-05-20 22:07:05 UTC
The main thing to happen with crystals is give us a choice between EM heavy or Thermal heavy. While the T2 Crystals can (& I think are) semi balanced between the two.

This can be done easily by removing the 25% range steps. Which I've found not so many people make use of, simply due to the micro management involved and the fact reloading crystals is not instant due to server ticks. Normally stopping guns costs you a second as the server realises you have actually stopped. Then the click time to change, & the server tick to recognise that before you can actually resume firing. It's still faster than other guns, but the reality is 2-3 seconds normally.

This then gives us 6 kinds of T1 Ammo, 2 at +50%/0/-50% which lets us choose EM or Therm heavy damage. Giving us a little flexibility, especially at long range where Amarr only do EM damage pretty much on the T1 crystals.

CCP have said a Laser Rebalance is somewhere on their list, though not at the top. So maybe a year or two.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2013-05-20 22:57:19 UTC
Why should projectiles and missiles lose an advantage? And would you extend this buff to hybrids too, or just make it effectively a nerf to them?
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#9 - 2013-05-20 22:59:11 UTC
Ruze wrote:
I would argue YES, but I don't. Here's why:

Through recent changes and advancements, only about 60% of Amarr ships are incapable of doing other damage types. Why 60%? Because the other 40% have been given large drone bays, launcher hardpoints, and in many cases, simply no weapon bonus at all, making the use of autocannons and artillery far better an option.

We've been granted the ability to diversify quite well. Adding more versatility in our damage capabilities at this point would almost completely throw the developer reasoning for converting so many Amarr assets into amalgamations of Gallente or Caldari ships, that it would create fire and brimstone on a threadpocalypse level.


/thread

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt
0wl
Hailbird
#10 - 2013-05-20 23:22:35 UTC
I'm a huge Amarr fan, but giving them variable dmg types would be the weapon system far to powerful imo. I do think however some the Mattari T2 EM resists are some what extreme.
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-05-20 23:54:25 UTC
0wl wrote:
I'm a huge Amarr fan, but giving them variable dmg types would be the weapon system far to powerful imo. I do think however some the Mattari T2 EM resists are some what extreme.


You can easily say the same about T2 Amarr Resists, a Vengeance with a damage control, one adaptive nano plating and level 5 assault ship skill has, 74.2% EM, 66.5% Thermal, 80.7% Kinetic and 89.7% Explovive resistance. So if Minmatar T2 have high EM and Thermal resistance I think it is completely balanced.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#12 - 2013-05-21 00:20:23 UTC
While we're at it, let's give blasters and railguns ammo types that do different kinds of damage. Let's cut the DPS of blasters a bit, give them really, really good falloff too, and then call them "Autocannons".

Also, we should consider giving Railguns a massive increase in volley damage while basically throwing their rate of fire into the toilet, and also cutting down their range somewhat.

I think this new and incredibly powerful weapon system should be christened "Artillery".
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-05-21 00:31:31 UTC
Lasers are already the 2nd best weapon system in game overall. And exp lasers are harder to explain lore wise.

Hybrids should be the ones getting dmg variations. They could use a boost, and not only would it be easy to explain lore wise, it's hard to explain why different element hybrid ammos don't already do different dmg types.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#14 - 2013-05-21 00:53:48 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Lasers are already the 2nd best weapon system in game overall. And exp lasers are harder to explain lore wise.

Hybrids should be the ones getting dmg variations. They could use a boost, and not only would it be easy to explain lore wise, it's hard to explain why different element hybrid ammos don't already do different dmg types.


A great weapon system on paper, which significantly penalizes the usefulness of the ship when used, and cannot be reasonably be fitted on ships that don't receive specific bonuses to do so.

Hybrids are used by two races which each have options for completing their damage portfolio. They aren't exactly hindered, especially since hybrid damage types specifically address shields and armor in turn, and caldari missiles and gallente drones receive far more boosts within their race than, say, Amarr.

All in all, I'm feeling it's kind of balanced around here, though I predict an equally large threadnought if Amarr were left as the only two-damage primary weapon system.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-05-21 01:00:00 UTC
Ruze wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Lasers are already the 2nd best weapon system in game overall. And exp lasers are harder to explain lore wise.

Hybrids should be the ones getting dmg variations. They could use a boost, and not only would it be easy to explain lore wise, it's hard to explain why different element hybrid ammos don't already do different dmg types.


A great weapon system on paper, which significantly penalizes the usefulness of the ship when used, and cannot be reasonably be fitted on ships that don't receive specific bonuses to do so.

Hybrids are used by two races which each have options for completing their damage portfolio. They aren't exactly hindered, especially since hybrid damage types specifically address shields and armor in turn, and caldari missiles and gallente drones receive far more boosts within their race than, say, Amarr.

All in all, I'm feeling it's kind of balanced around here, though I predict an equally large threadnought if Amarr were left as the only two-damage primary weapon system.


Seeing as Hybrids address shield and armour, make lasers EM/Explosive instead of EM/Thermal, however I dont experience any problems with the damage of lasers against armour ships when I use them and dont feel their damage type needs to change to be honest.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Brent Anderson
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#16 - 2013-05-21 01:38:49 UTC
I have a Idea to Address the lack of damage variation to the laser weapons.

Mining lasers use a tunneling laser to bore into rock and a tractor system that draws in the raw materials.

reverse this Idea, make laser crystals with metal cores that when the laser is fired it strips the core material and strikes the target with alternate forms of damage (I.E. Lead, Iron and Tungsten do Kinetic. Uranium,plutonium do explosive) allowing variation to which weapon damage type works best against the target.

Also these Metal cored crystals have a limited Lifespan of shots as with each shot they strip more and more of the core material with each shot. Thus making them "Ammo" limited weapons.

Such "Core" crystals could be easily added to the game as blueprints that us crystals and the needed rail/blaster ammo to manufacture them. Display wise adding off color motes into the laser stream should make note that this is a "Core" crystal in use.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#17 - 2013-05-21 02:48:22 UTC
Brent Anderson wrote:
I have a Idea to Address the lack of damage variation to the laser weapons.

Mining lasers use a tunneling laser to bore into rock and a tractor system that draws in the raw materials.

reverse this Idea, make laser crystals with metal cores that when the laser is fired it strips the core material and strikes the target with alternate forms of damage (I.E. Lead, Iron and Tungsten do Kinetic. Uranium,plutonium do explosive) allowing variation to which weapon damage type works best against the target.

Also these Metal cored crystals have a limited Lifespan of shots as with each shot they strip more and more of the core material with each shot. Thus making them "Ammo" limited weapons.

Such "Core" crystals could be easily added to the game as blueprints that us crystals and the needed rail/blaster ammo to manufacture them. Display wise adding off color motes into the laser stream should make note that this is a "Core" crystal in use.



This weapon system is in game already. They are hybrids, but for some reason only do Kinetic and Thermal damage.
Psychoactive Stimulant
#18 - 2013-05-21 03:16:09 UTC
Aglais wrote:
While we're at it, let's give blasters and railguns ammo types that do different kinds of damage. Let's cut the DPS of blasters a bit, give them really, really good falloff too, and then call them "Autocannons".

Also, we should consider giving Railguns a massive increase in volley damage while basically throwing their rate of fire into the toilet, and also cutting down their range somewhat.

I think this new and incredibly powerful weapon system should be christened "Artillery".



I think they already have those.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#19 - 2013-05-21 09:58:08 UTC
Better idea: Projectiles are currently the only gun type that has selectable damage. Return them to expl/kin only and call it done. Minmatar boats have drones and missiles too. Also, while we're at it, make them use a small amount of cap so that neuts have an effect on them. Doesn't have to be a huge amount of cap, just enough so you can't fire them while being neuted.
Doddy
Excidium.
#20 - 2013-05-21 10:31:48 UTC
Lets give the already frighteningly op pulse lasers choice of damage (which they can instantly change) as well, what can possibly go wrong?

Truth is lmited damage types only matters at all if your enemy knows what you are going to be fielding, and if your enemy knows what you will be fielding you have worse problems than damage types. Normal fits are all omni tanked so whether you have em/therm lasers or kin/therm hybrids is largely irrelevant. The damage adaptability of projectiles is massively overestmated (it doesn't exist on t2 ammo and even with t1 ammo it only allows for partial coverage often with 3 damage types meaning you are always doing one of the worst damage types as well). Only missiles allow for true damage type choice and they are limited in plenty other ways.
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