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Faction war and small scale pvp improvement

Author
Karl Planck
Perkone
Caldari State
#21 - 2011-11-04 11:43:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Karl Planck
Prometheus Bird wrote:

Also (sorry if this has been mentioned elsewhere), the entry requirements to the sites make no sense. Why can a faction frigate like a Dramiel or a Daredevil enter the small sites, but an AF, Intereceptor, or EAF can't? That's just crazy, and it means that 90% of the ships (at least the ones I see) used in FW are:

Stealth bomber
Dramiel
Hookbill
Slicer

Seriously, either ban faction ships or allow T2 variants.


No, just the pirate faction and T2, leave the navy faction to have entrance (they aren't nearly as powerful). However, if the dessy changes are true this will no longer become and issue.

I has all the eve inactivity

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#22 - 2011-11-04 13:09:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Karl Planck wrote:
Prometheus Bird wrote:

Also (sorry if this has been mentioned elsewhere), the entry requirements to the sites make no sense. Why can a faction frigate like a Dramiel or a Daredevil enter the small sites, but an AF, Intereceptor, or EAF can't? That's just crazy, and it means that 90% of the ships (at least the ones I see) used in FW are:

Stealth bomber
Dramiel
Hookbill
Slicer

Seriously, either ban faction ships or allow T2 variants.


No, just the pirate faction and T2, leave the navy faction to have entrance (they aren't nearly as powerful). However, if the dessy changes are true this will no longer become and issue.



I was just thinking they should create a new "rookie plex" this would allow only vanilla t1 frigates - no faction frigs, destroyers or t2. Then the minor plex would allow everything a minor plex currently allows including destroyers, but also allow interceptors and assault ships.

For the minors: I think the destroyers faction frigates and t2 are all fairly well balanced and it would make a nice variety.

For the rookie plex: The vannilla t1 frigates are also a very well ballanced group of ships. And understanding how that pool of ships works would be very good for beginners who can be overwhelmed if there are too many types of ships.

edit: What are they doing to dessies?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Prometheus Bird
Doomheim
#23 - 2011-11-06 04:47:18 UTC
Karl Planck wrote:
Prometheus Bird wrote:

Also (sorry if this has been mentioned elsewhere), the entry requirements to the sites make no sense. Why can a faction frigate like a Dramiel or a Daredevil enter the small sites, but an AF, Intereceptor, or EAF can't? That's just crazy, and it means that 90% of the ships (at least the ones I see) used in FW are:

Stealth bomber
Dramiel
Hookbill
Slicer

Seriously, either ban faction ships or allow T2 variants.


No, just the pirate faction and T2, leave the navy faction to have entrance (they aren't nearly as powerful). However, if the dessy changes are true this will no longer become and issue.



Well, I think the idea of a rookie plex (no faction, no t2) and then an everything as a minor makes more sense. Whilst some of the empire faction frigs aren't as powerful as the pirate ones, the hookbill and the comet totally outclass every T1 non-faction frigate. The plated, two web and tracking disruptor hookbill fit that's become fairly common (http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14509645) can't really be challenged by any T1 non-faction frig.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2011-11-06 15:25:11 UTC
I am not convinced about the intel channel idea not because of the intel it provides but because it is a more limiting mechanism. You just logged on what do you see?

I posted these ideas in one of the other faction warfare threads, what do you think?

Faction War Intel Mini map - 2D region based intel map, available through militia office, Highlight activity, shows number of plexes taken lost/missions completed and militia ships destroyed in the last hour and importantly shows current plexes/missions in progress, perhaps with some delayed intel say 5 minutes so it does not take the place of proper scouting and maybe only for the region you are in.


Regarding system occupancy

War Taxes - Controversially I would perhaps propose a tax on High sec based corps based in that faction’s space. This tax only exists where there is a significant imbalance in the systems held. The worse your faction is doing the higher the tax the more ISK is goes to that government. (Not a huge percentage tax though perhaps just 2% or 3%)

The pay-out for PVP kills and flipping systems would then be higher when a faction is losing. Seems unfair but it is to create a balance so that everyone does not just jump on the winning side and that perhaps the militia is reinforced when doing badly due to greater incentives. This would require more than just the swinging of a few systems to trigger, maybe when you have lost say 30% or so and perhaps your own rewards would drop if you faction becomes too dominant.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#25 - 2011-11-08 01:50:34 UTC
Alticus C Bear wrote:
I am not convinced about the intel channel idea not because of the intel it provides but because it is a more limiting mechanism. You just logged on what do you see?


The intel channel would not allow players to post in it. It would just say things like "cearain, entered minor, auga, frigate." Then when I leave it would say something like "Cearain, exit minor, auga, pod." They could have all the intel on who is in what plexes when you first sign in or you might have to wait. Either way you will find pvp 10xs faster than you can now.

Alticus C Bear wrote:


I posted these ideas in one of the other faction warfare threads, what do you think?

Faction War Intel Mini map - 2D region based intel map, available through militia office, Highlight activity, shows number of plexes taken lost/missions completed and militia ships destroyed in the last hour and importantly shows current plexes/missions in progress, perhaps with some delayed intel say 5 minutes so it does not take the place of proper scouting and maybe only for the region you are in.





I like the map idea - if the map worked well. However my map always cause major slow downs and crashes in my computer.

Also there shouldn't be too much of a delay. I don't like alts too much so requiring a bunch of scouting is not really my thing. The idea should be that there are so many fights spread out that there are just constantly pilots jumping in plexes as fast as they can. Not the slow ass scout out the enemy form a fleet and then have them dock and ship bs that happens now.

BTW having this intel channel or map system would make it so spys would be less of an issue.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Prometheus Bird
Doomheim
#26 - 2011-11-08 14:54:30 UTC
What about if FW plexes were bubbled/no warp out zones?
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2011-11-08 17:34:22 UTC
Don't get me wrong I support the Intel channel idea, if it's an intel channel or nothing then I would take that, I just believe that the same information can be presented in a slightly more user friendly way.

I also have problems with the star map, what we need is something much simpler and more focused almost like Dotlan but live and specific to faction warfare.

The slight delay I would prefer although maybe 5 minutes is to much, you see I enter plexes to provoke a fight or limit the ship classes that I have to fight and a few minutes delay means I can engage people within the current system without the hordes descending on me. However if I am just sitting orbitting a timer then it should leave just enough time for someone to get too me and try to stop me.

I am also normally a solo pilot a little bit of the unkown is prbably good for us.

Regarding bubbles in plexes, I have seen this idea before but I feel it may put people of rather than encourage people to PVP within them and may result in a lot of sniper camping.
Zircon Dasher
#28 - 2011-11-08 17:55:20 UTC
Prometheus Bird wrote:
What about if FW plexes were bubbled/no warp out zones?


Lol

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#29 - 2011-11-08 18:23:17 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Prometheus Bird wrote:
What about if FW plexes were bubbled/no warp out zones?


Lol



People would probably try to sell their characters that are in the plexes because they would realize without the ability to warp it will take years to get anywhere else. Big smile

If you mean no one can warp out until the plex is taken that is different.

I think the problem there is the pvp will not have the same complexity that is involved when you have to keep someone tackled. It would be a sort of dumbed down pvp.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Prometheus Bird
Doomheim
#30 - 2011-11-09 12:36:49 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Prometheus Bird wrote:
What about if FW plexes were bubbled/no warp out zones?


Lol



I think the problem there is the pvp will not have the same complexity that is involved when you have to keep someone tackled. It would be a sort of dumbed down pvp.


Ah, yes, that is true.

There'd finally be a use for the retribution, though :)
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#31 - 2011-11-15 11:36:54 UTC
Alticus C Bear wrote:
Don't get me wrong I support the Intel channel idea, if it's an intel channel or nothing then I would take that, I just believe that the same information can be presented in a slightly more user friendly way.

I also have problems with the star map, what we need is something much simpler and more focused almost like Dotlan but live and specific to faction warfare.

The slight delay I would prefer although maybe 5 minutes is to much, you see I enter plexes to provoke a fight or limit the ship classes that I have to fight and a few minutes delay means I can engage people within the current system without the hordes descending on me. However if I am just sitting orbitting a timer then it should leave just enough time for someone to get too me and try to stop me.

I am also normally a solo pilot a little bit of the unkown is prbably good for us.

Regarding bubbles in plexes, I have seen this idea before but I feel it may put people of rather than encourage people to PVP within them and may result in a lot of sniper camping.



Yes good points. I think the main thing is to make it so we can know our militiary complexes are being invaded. If its by map that is ok with me - as long as the map is fixed so its not so buggy.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#32 - 2011-11-28 17:30:25 UTC
Cearain wrote:
I suppose I should add that plexes shouldn't mainly spawn at downtime but that should be pretty obvious.



It sounds like CCP agrees and is planning on fixing this.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#33 - 2011-12-05 15:27:04 UTC
Karl Planck wrote:
Prometheus Bird wrote:

Also (sorry if this has been mentioned elsewhere), the entry requirements to the sites make no sense. Why can a faction frigate like a Dramiel or a Daredevil enter the small sites, but an AF, Intereceptor, or EAF can't? That's just crazy, and it means that 90% of the ships (at least the ones I see) used in FW are:

Stealth bomber
Dramiel
Hookbill
Slicer

Seriously, either ban faction ships or allow T2 variants.


No, just the pirate faction and T2, leave the navy faction to have entrance (they aren't nearly as powerful). However, if the dessy changes are true this will no longer become and issue.



Now with the destroyers buff there is no reason to do minors in anything other than thrashers. Although this request is not part of the op I do destroyers were not allowed in minors.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2011-12-20 02:09:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Garr Earthbender
Cearain wrote:
Karl Planck wrote:
Prometheus Bird wrote:

Also (sorry if this has been mentioned elsewhere), the entry requirements to the sites make no sense. Why can a faction frigate like a Dramiel or a Daredevil enter the small sites, but an AF, Intereceptor, or EAF can't? That's just crazy, and it means that 90% of the ships (at least the ones I see) used in FW are:

Stealth bomber
Dramiel
Hookbill
Slicer

Seriously, either ban faction ships or allow T2 variants.


No, just the pirate faction and T2, leave the navy faction to have entrance (they aren't nearly as powerful). However, if the dessy changes are true this will no longer become and issue.



Now with the destroyers buff there is no reason to do minors in anything other than thrashers. Although this request is not part of the op I do destroyers were not allowed in minors.


Nah. Dessies are fine inside of Minors. If you're in a minor to fight, then some frigs sitting on the warp in would work fine methinks. I'd sure as hell engage with with even numbers against destroyers if I'm already inside the plex. 1/2 the time a dessie is range fit, so it's a nice gamble to take with expendable frigates.

Hell, I even caught a Catalyst outside a gate (I was in a punisher) while his friends went in and survived long enough to my friends to get there from a stargate and pop him. However if I'm frig soloing in a plex with absolutely NO reinforcements nearby and I see a destroyer inbound, I'll be doing a nice GTFO maneuver for sure.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#35 - 2011-12-27 16:31:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Garr Earthbender wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Karl Planck wrote:
Prometheus Bird wrote:

Also (sorry if this has been mentioned elsewhere), the entry requirements to the sites make no sense. Why can a faction frigate like a Dramiel or a Daredevil enter the small sites, but an AF, Intereceptor, or EAF can't? That's just crazy, and it means that 90% of the ships (at least the ones I see) used in FW are:

Stealth bomber
Dramiel
Hookbill
Slicer

Seriously, either ban faction ships or allow T2 variants.


No, just the pirate faction and T2, leave the navy faction to have entrance (they aren't nearly as powerful). However, if the dessy changes are true this will no longer become and issue.



Now with the destroyers buff there is no reason to do minors in anything other than thrashers. Although this request is not part of the op I do destroyers were not allowed in minors.


Nah. Dessies are fine inside of Minors. If you're in a minor to fight, then some frigs sitting on the warp in would work fine methinks. I'd sure as hell engage with with even numbers against destroyers if I'm already inside the plex. 1/2 the time a dessie is range fit, so it's a nice gamble to take with expendable frigates.

Hell, I even caught a Catalyst outside a gate (I was in a punisher) while his friends went in and survived long enough to my friends to get there from a stargate and pop him. However if I'm frig soloing in a plex with absolutely NO reinforcements nearby and I see a destroyer inbound, I'll be doing a nice GTFO maneuver for sure.



Please come plexing for the minmatar. I think it will take some time for people to sort out the fits but other than the slicers and hookbill I don't see anything that will be able to stand up to destroyers. There are reasons why those 2 ships are not as good as destroyers including their price.

But that is fine I am willing to wait until the majority of the ships doing plexes are destroyers. In the past I would say only about 25% of the plexing ships were one of the 4 pirate ships yet people thought that was a problem. Now I bet over 50% of the ships in minors will be 1 of the 4 destroyers. (at least if they have any intention of staying for a fight instead of warping off as soon as an enemy comes)
I think that will be the inevitable result once people figure out the fits. If I am right then this made the diversity of ships in minor plexes much much worse.

Regardless of this issue though. What about the op proposal? Is hide and seek plexing still a problem? Wouldn't we get more fights if the players knew where the plexes are being taken?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2011-12-27 20:18:40 UTC
Well, I don't want to have a big sign saying WE'RE PLEXING IN AKIDAGI RIGHT NOW!!!! I want them to take a look at the occupancy map and see that there's a big ass blob over the system and say to themselves 'self, I think there's bad guys plexing in Akidagi. I think I should scout it/take a fleet in and see what we can do.'

It's still pretty easy. Heck, if the Caldari want good fights, then they should just come and plex over near Nenna. Open plexes, sit in plexes. Cap plexes. Soon enough it'll get noticed by us and we'l come a fightin'! A few of us have been known to come into a plex with even numbers. Or down 1. We just want fights, same as them.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#37 - 2011-12-27 20:58:04 UTC
Garr Earthbender wrote:
Well, I don't want to have a big sign saying WE'RE PLEXING IN AKIDAGI RIGHT NOW!!!! ...'.


Well if you are openly attacking their military complexes, isn't it odd that they are *not* notified of this?
Garr Earthbender wrote:

It's still pretty easy. Heck, if the Caldari want good fights, then they should just come and plex over near Nenna. Open plexes, sit in plexes. Cap plexes. Soon enough it'll get noticed by us and we'l come a fightin'! A few of us have been known to come into a plex with even numbers. Or down 1. We just want fights, same as them.


Its actually pretty easy to plex without pvp. Ank proved this. She capped over a hundred plexes in less than a week and never did *any* pvp.

I agree for the most part both sides want gfs. The problem is finding them.

When I plex I would say there is less than a 5% chance a war target will enter the plex I entered. I don't think that is really that great for pvp. In fact I think that sucks. Giving the militia a notification would solve this.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2011-12-27 21:57:12 UTC
I guess where you go from our disagreements is what kind of notification system do you want? Something in Militia chat? Something in your notifications (that I largely ignore because of PVP notification lag)? I'm guessing what you want is something that's non-intrusive that gives an up to the..... 10-15 minute update of current systems being plexed?

I also wonder if all of this is a moot point because of the last CSM and the fact that they discussed FW during it.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#39 - 2011-12-27 22:19:55 UTC
Garr Earthbender wrote:
I guess where you go from our disagreements is what kind of notification system do you want? Something in Militia chat? Something in your notifications (that I largely ignore because of PVP notification lag)? I'm guessing what you want is something that's non-intrusive that gives an up to the..... 10-15 minute update of current systems being plexed?

I also wonder if all of this is a moot point because of the last CSM and the fact that they discussed FW during it.



It may be moot.

But anyway what I was thinking is a seperate channel that would only give notifications of complexes that have been entered. No players would be able to type in the intel channel. Otherwise it would look just like any other channel. It would just generate messages like "Cearain merlin entered minor auga" The timestamp could be enabled so you would know when I entered.

Actually there would be one chat channel for the gallente caldari front and a different one for the minmatar amarr front. I would have access to both but I would probably only look at the for the front I am currently fighting at.

The intel would be immediated that way a pilot nearby would have enough time to jump there and possibly save the plex.

It would take balancing but the idea would be to keep the fighting fast paced and dynamic.

The militias would have to assign different pilots to several different sections of the front. So if the minmatar saw the message "cearain merlin entered minor auga" someone might report in their intel channel that they are going in that minor with a destroyer. If 5 people from the minmatar said they were going in with destroyers someone might reassign some of them to another system that would need defending instead of doing overkill in that one. That way they would be using all their pilots as effectively as possible.

If one side had larger numbers then the other side may have to abandon certain areas but they could still regroup and try to be competitve in others.

That is the goal I would be going for. There would need to be allot of tweaking, but this proposal would be the first step.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2011-12-28 00:27:54 UTC
That's WAY MORE than knowing where the fighting is occurring. I would almost keep the intel open ended and let the militia coordinate on their own.Like if a militia had a channel specifically for plexing. I think CCP is trying to stay away from NPCs as much as possible and get that kinda stuff into the hands of the players. I don't think there's ever been someone's job to just check all contested systems and see if there's someone currently plexing there.

IF there was to be an NPC plex reporting channel, then I'd also have less intel in that it. Maybe just letting you have a real time list of what's contested or...... where there's plexes that are currently being run with updates around 10-15 minutes. From an RP standpoint, you could say that the intel/comm routers in low sec are old and in disrepair so that they don't give EXACT intel.

I'm still not sure if I would want NPC updates though. Maybe if FW gets some sort of Sov system where we can install upgraded comm relays, then sure. Otherwise, I dunno.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper