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Sun Tzu: an almost necessity!
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Six Six Six
Doomheim
#81 - 2013-05-20 16:08:17 UTC
I won't read it either.

Most of it should be common sense anyway.



Seen too many bad managers in the past, where you can tell someone's removed the brain and inserted a text book.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#82 - 2013-05-20 16:11:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Varius Xeral
Six Six Six wrote:
I won't read it either.

Most of it should be common sense anyway.



Seen too many bad managers in the past, where you can tell someone's removed the brain and inserted a text book.


This is what it comes down to. The kind of person who thinks they have some special insight into Eve warfare because they read Sun Tzu is likely kind of a knob. The fact that they are kind of a knob means they are going to be mediocre at best at Eve warfare.

It's really the attitude about the knowledge and it's applicability more than the knowledge itself.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#83 - 2013-05-20 16:14:19 UTC
I'll add that this thread has shown a shocking mix of fun-making and genuine insight for GD. There may yet be hope for this forum section.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Minerva Zen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2013-05-20 16:23:47 UTC
Sun Tzu had some great fitting advice:

An army that is strong on the left is weak on the right.
Strong at the front, weak at the rear.
Strong everywhere, weak everywhere.

He also gave a nod to logistics' superiority to tactics in the long term.

His greatest contribution is the idea that there is no single magic thing that allows you to know in advance how anything military is going to turn out. You cannot buy safety for any price. You must always follow up your preparations with awareness and self-control.

If you prefer preparation over awareness and discipline and good old hard work, Sun Tzu will not help you.

See my bio for more.
Six Six Six
Doomheim
#85 - 2013-05-20 16:28:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Six Six Six
Minerva Zen wrote:


His greatest contribution is the idea that there is no single magic thing that allows you to know in advance how anything military is going to turn out. You cannot buy safety for any price. You must always follow up your preparations with awareness and self-control.




Which boils down to common sense.

If that's his greatest contribution, then all I can say is I'm glad I've not read it. Not that I would anyway.
Six Six Six
Doomheim
#86 - 2013-05-20 16:52:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Six Six Six
Minerva Zen wrote:

If you prefer preparation over awareness and discipline and good old hard work, Sun Tzu will not help you.





That line doesn't make sense to me.


Preparation always helps but you can't rely on it (which might be what he means, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't prepare).

Awareness is something you should have constantly regardless, as things can change rapidly.

You can have hard work without the discipline but you can't have discipline without the hard work.



Edit: If that's a direct quote from him, what he probably means is if you put your faith in preparation alone or rely too heavily on it then you're a fool and Sun Tzu can't help you.
Minerva Zen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2013-05-20 17:50:54 UTC
Six Six Six wrote:
Minerva Zen wrote:

If you prefer preparation over awareness and discipline and good old hard work, Sun Tzu will not help you.



That line doesn't make sense to me.
...If that's a direct quote from him, what he probably means is if you put your faith in preparation alone or rely too heavily on it then you're a fool and Sun Tzu can't help you.


Sounds like you've got it, basically. For those following along, here's some Bruce Lee:

Before I learned how to punch, a punch was just a punch.
While I was learning how to punch, a punch was much more than just a punch.
After I learned how to punch, a punch was once again just a punch.
Shao Huang
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2013-05-20 18:06:42 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Shao Huang wrote:
The Classical Chinese texts differ from Eurocentric text in several ways. Whereas Leibniz and Newton want to argue about who came up with the Calculus first, the classical Chinese approach is to claim the thing was said by some ancient and then comment on it. Very little of Sun Tzu is actually Sun Tzu. Most of it is the commentaries.

Hmm that is a very accurate perception of the differing cultures. I have noticed in Eastern culture they seem to have great reverence for scholars of the past and will go to great lengths to build upon old theories even though they seem very shaky by today standards. Whereas in Western culture we will be very quick to dismiss and throw out an old theory and once it doesn't stack up to the evidence.


There are other differences. They are not True, but true enough to notice. For instance:

The Hellenistic Eurocentric thesis is often a matter of linked if-then statements leading to a conclusion. The Classical Chinese approach to that same thing might fully surround the thesis without ever making it explicit.

At the same time that Pythagoras was deriving his theorem on right triangles there existed in China a text called 'The Book of Triangles'. It contains very little theory and some equations, but it has many, many examples of empirical right triangles in the world.

There are other interesting examples including medicine, causality, logic, language, governance, etc.

Private sig. Do not read.
Vortexo VonBrenner
Doomheim
#89 - 2013-05-20 18:23:29 UTC
Somewhat Ironically, on the Chinese server they're debating applying the wisdom of ancient Viking military philosopher Thorval Ravenhand to EVE. Pearls such as:

"When your enemy thinks you are far, emit a blood-curdling battlescream and attack."

"When outnumbered by your enemy, emit a blood-curdling battlescream and attack."

"He who prepares carefully will be made ravenfood by him who screams and attacks"

By all accounts it's quite a spirited - yet highly honorable, mind you - debate.

EvE security zones in pictures

EvE quick reference pdf

EvE links
Shao Huang
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2013-05-20 18:36:28 UTC
Minerva Zen wrote:
Six Six Six wrote:
Minerva Zen wrote:

If you prefer preparation over awareness and discipline and good old hard work, Sun Tzu will not help you.



That line doesn't make sense to me.
...If that's a direct quote from him, what he probably means is if you put your faith in preparation alone or rely too heavily on it then you're a fool and Sun Tzu can't help you.


Sounds like you've got it, basically. For those following along, here's some Bruce Lee:

Before I learned how to punch, a punch was just a punch.
While I was learning how to punch, a punch was much more than just a punch.
After I learned how to punch, a punch was once again just a punch.


There is no punch. Cool

Private sig. Do not read.
Farrakhan Shabazz
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2013-05-20 18:52:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Farrakhan Shabazz
People in this thread are focusing too much on the "Sun Tzu" reference with bad attempts at humor and not enough on the primary point: "To what extend can Eve players learn from the advice, mistakes and successes of past military leaders." ( this question can also apply to economists, political leaders, etc.)

Put simply, I think an Eve player can learn alot.

Yea, this is a "game" but it is also a battle sim of some sorts, with AI and real person participants (therefore in most cases you are dealing with "real person" decision making processes. Yes, we are dealing with "space ships" that clearly don't exist in the "real world", but in reality, you can simply replace space ships with tanks, M-16s, etc. Its just code, but the mechanics very much simulate real world battle tactics. For example, generally speaking, "the folks with the most guns beat the folks with the least guns." But like in the real world and actual military combat, it gets much more complicated than that (e.g., "information" is an incredible important commodity and can trump actual firepower in many instances)

If you run a corporation, learning how past military leaders dealt with motivating officers, instilling accountability, and leadership makes sense. We've all been on "raids" in traditional MMOs where you get one raid leader who can barely read and has no sense of managing a group, and other raid leaders that sound like Rommell and clearly have there @#@#$ together. The same type of situation happens in the military. Why not learn from the "leaders" and use some of their tactics to succeed in a battle sim.

So IMHO, yes, you can learn from Sun Zsu, the Desert Fox, Eisenhower, William the Conqueror, and heck even Charlie Sheen's character in Wall Street, where he quotes Sun Zsu:

Bud Fox " If your enemy is superior, evade him. If angry, irritate him. If equally matched, fight, and if not split and reevaluate. - Sun Tzu"

EDIT: The one caveat in all of this is that in Eve, the consequences of bad decision making is not fatal (i.e., you lose your pod, you don't DIE in real life lol). That point cannot be understated, as "real world" battle decision making clearly places a greater value on loss of life, whereas in Eve, if you die, you just start over, cry about being ganked, etc. This reality somewhat undermines "real world" battle scenereos as they apply to Eve.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#92 - 2013-05-20 18:56:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Varius Xeral
Farrakhan Shabazz wrote:
People in this thread are focusing too much on the "Sun Tzu" reference with bad attempts at humor and not enough on the primary point: "To what extend can Eve players learn from the advice, mistakes and successes of past military leaders." ( this question can also apply to economists, political leaders, etc.)


No, that's actually been the general consensus throughout the thread: that there is applicability from a wide range of ideas, but you have to be cleverer in the application to Eve than you do in the rote regurgitation of the original source.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2013-05-20 19:00:59 UTC
Shao Huang wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:

And what would Sun Tzu say about the strategic and tactical value of spending one's time playing war in an internet game about imaginary spaceships?

While perhaps not the best pursuit in terms cultivation, it would be considered far superior to actually shooting people as a first course of action. If it served this purpose in any way, it would be considered of strategic value.

On the other hand, if it cultivated violent response as the first reflex and course of action within the general population, it would be considered a strategic disadvantage.

Sun Tzu and such is mostly useless in the moment for an operational leader (strategic or tactical) who has not really internalized it (or like works). Having an ally or counselor who actually has internalized it, as opposed to a hyped academic acquisition, can be quite useful to the operational leader as it provides perspective, historical and otherwise, outside the immediate boundaries of the conflict. Typically I would not make that person the leader, with rare exceptions. It should not directly be the basis of operational decisions and quoting such things at best has dramatic value for a narrative.
Even better, a leader who reads Sun Tzu and can truthfully say "well duh!" and doesn't have to read it to follow it because it's just plain common sense.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Shao Huang
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2013-05-20 19:16:53 UTC
A model (not the model)

Consider a simple model in which there are three overlapping phases of learning or 'mastery':

1- naming
2- recognition
3- authoring

Naming, I can quote the sh*t out of something, but it doesn't actually mean much to me. Ironically, I will also be quite sure that it does mean a lot to me and zealously pursue that belief.

Recognition, I can actually see examples in myself and in the world that match what is being talked about. Application is still limited and mostly expressed as trying to fit some memorized technique to some external form, as if that form were static.

Authoring- I could write the book, but don't need to. I am interacting with a changing environment in a way that if some one then tried to analyze and codify it might look very much like some text, discipline or particular teaching.

Private sig. Do not read.
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2013-05-20 19:41:39 UTC
Juno Libertas wrote:
Decrypt my character bio :)

Be sure to drink your Ovaltine. Ovaltine? A crummy commercial? Son of a...!

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#96 - 2013-05-20 20:11:33 UTC
Farrakhan Shabazz wrote:
People in this thread are focusing too much on the "Sun Tzu" reference with bad attempts at humor and not enough on the primary point: "To what extend can Eve players learn from the advice, mistakes and successes of past military leaders." ( this question can also apply to economists, political leaders, etc.)

Put simply, I think an Eve player can learn alot.

Yea, this is a "game" but it is also a battle sim of some sorts, with AI and real person participants (therefore in most cases you are dealing with "real person" decision making processes. Yes, we are dealing with "space ships" that clearly don't exist in the "real world", but in reality, you can simply replace space ships with tanks, M-16s, etc. Its just code, but the mechanics very much simulate real world battle tactics. For example, generally speaking, "the folks with the most guns beat the folks with the least guns." But like in the real world and actual military combat, it gets much more complicated than that (e.g., "information" is an incredible important commodity and can trump actual firepower in many instances)

If you run a corporation, learning how past military leaders dealt with motivating officers, instilling accountability, and leadership makes sense. We've all been on "raids" in traditional MMOs where you get one raid leader who can barely read and has no sense of managing a group, and other raid leaders that sound like Rommell and clearly have there @#@#$ together. The same type of situation happens in the military. Why not learn from the "leaders" and use some of their tactics to succeed in a battle sim.

So IMHO, yes, you can learn from Sun Zsu, the Desert Fox, Eisenhower, William the Conqueror, and heck even Charlie Sheen's character in Wall Street, where he quotes Sun Zsu:

Bud Fox " If your enemy is superior, evade him. If angry, irritate him. If equally matched, fight, and if not split and reevaluate. - Sun Tzu"

EDIT: The one caveat in all of this is that in Eve, the consequences of bad decision making is not fatal (i.e., you lose your pod, you don't DIE in real life lol). That point cannot be understated, as "real world" battle decision making clearly places a greater value on loss of life, whereas in Eve, if you die, you just start over, cry about being ganked, etc. This reality somewhat undermines "real world" battle scenereos as they apply to Eve.




Actually if you want to be successful in EvE you have to act almost exactly opposite of the many widely accepted military ideas. For example, Sun Tzu writes a lot about the cost of war and how military campaigns have to be decisive. That is the exact opposite of what you want to have in EvE, you want to have as few blues, constant conflict, places to roam and enemies to kill. That is the only way of keeping your player base entertained, many of the Alliances in EvE have settled into their space and became stagnant (White Noise. is a great example) due to massive blue lists and lack of targets. In other cases Sun Tzu writes about providing your opponent an avenue for retreat, that is something you do not want to do in EvE, alliance that can constantly evac their assets will stick around and keep harassing their enemy. You want to crush them completely, lock our their assets and as HBC showed in their recent war vs -A-, you want to camp them in their staging station until they grow bored and stagnate.

The best FCs in the game dont get there by reading treatises and discourses on military tactics and strategies, they are players who go out and pew, pew, and pew till they can barely keep their eyes open.
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2013-05-20 20:14:10 UTC
OfBalance wrote:
That's amazing brother, please share you in-game property (That's such a dirt word! You know that there's no such thing!) with me so that I can attend to the liberating!


Your desperation sounds very capitalist. I'll share disappointment with you; I'm disappointed in your bourgeois traits, you can be disappointed that you can't have the property of the revolution.

Dodixie > Hek
OfBalance
Caldari State
#98 - 2013-05-20 21:11:03 UTC
ElQuirko wrote:
OfBalance wrote:
That's amazing brother, please share you in-game property (That's such a dirt word! You know that there's no such thing!) with me so that I can attend to the liberating!


Your desperation sounds very capitalist. I'll share disappointment with you; I'm disappointed in your bourgeois traits, you can be disappointed that you can't have the property of the revolution.


You're too judgmental, brother.

From each according to his ability. To each according to his needs.

We both know that we need to liberate the proletariat from their enslavement here in this capitalist dystopian hellscape. I am simply offering to assist you and our fellows through your altruism.

Revolution never stops, but it must begin within you.
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#99 - 2013-05-20 21:46:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Garresh
Okay were making fun of sun tzu because its not that applicable. His knowledge was good for logistics and deception and not much else. But local and scan somewhat limit the applications. Titan bridges too. Eve is a game that rewards creativity, ruthlessness, and cultural/intelligence warfare. As such, I find my biggest inspirations and most useful texts are Machiavelli and, in all seriousness, Enders game.

Games as a whole are the perfect medium for "Enders Game" moments of creative genius. The mindset of Ender is invaluable in eve. You want an example? RnK pipe bombing or the false tower. Firewall doctrines. Grid Fu. Leapfrogging to deep safes. Outside the box thinking has been more than ever a deciding factor in the success of eve players. If you can bend the rules, you will succeed.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Farrakhan Shabazz
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#100 - 2013-05-20 23:22:19 UTC
I think skirmish warfare reading could have interesting applications to Eve. Sure, reading a treatise on Rommel's or McCarthur's strategy might not be all that relevant.

For example, "Fabian Strategy" seems like it would apply to Eve. Generally speaking, Fabian Strategy is where you avoid large scale battles and frontal assaults and instead wear down an opponent through a war of attrition and indirection. While avoiding decisive battles, the side employing this strategy harasses its enemy through skirmishes to cause attrition, disrupt supply and affect morale. Named after Quintus Fabius Maximus Verrucosus, a dictator of the Roman Republic.

So sure, Sun Tzu might not be the best recommended reading, but probably a butt load of generals and leaders that could teach a capsuleer or corp leader a thing or two....