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The fight between PvPers and carebears really is the carebears' fault.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#361 - 2013-05-20 14:56:28 UTC
Fernando MRuiz wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
The second isk is exchanged, it's defined by whether it is pvp or not. Player Versus Player.


'The moment one player's net worth is affected by another player, either directly or indirectly.'



Just interaction. You do not have to affect their wallet or their assets to do so.

Forum pvp for instance.

Chat pvp is another.

Right now, we are "pvp'ing" =)

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#362 - 2013-05-20 15:06:01 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:


Yes....yes I do. It is no different than any other game mechanic you take advantage of to kill an opponent already at a great disadvantage. Let’s get to the real issue you have....you want to be able to kill miners and Indy at a profit. The ability to kill them is already in the game so nothing broken working as intended. You state even the devs said the mechanic wasn’t working as they hoped. To which I state they have said ganking wasn’t meant to be profitable just possible.

Kill miners all day and night if that’s your thing but do so at your own personal cost...called balance. You may just have to mine and Indy to fund that game play style.

Or heaven forbid go reset someone in null and play against other players trained skilled and ready for pvp, but they wouldn’t be easy mode or provide that misguided since of superiority.



"Gank all the things" isn't an answer to the problem that is broken war dec mechanics. FIXING the war dec mechanics is the correct answer.

Also you might want to get up to date with what is going on out in null.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#363 - 2013-05-20 15:08:44 UTC
Alatari Yassavi wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Sorry but this game is very much based upon pvp. Anyone insisting that they should be exempt from it is playing the wrong game and should probably go to something like STO which is a pve based MMO.


STO sucks, i played it when i had no money for the real thing. I was sadly dissapointed.



Thats what carebears want EVE to become.
Boe Harknes
The FreeThought Society
#364 - 2013-05-20 15:16:57 UTC
Highsec carbears + Catalyst Gank = tears of delicous joy
Alatari Yassavi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#365 - 2013-05-20 15:22:29 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Thats what carebears want EVE to become.


I dont think that is true. I certainly do not. I think (imho) that their is no problem at all for either side, I dabble in PvP, i am not very good atm but i do enjoy it. I also do a large part of mining. The problem i have with PvPers (not all) is when i am mining and they decide to suicide gank me for no reason. That is where i have a problem. If i am in low/null can totally understand this and it comes with the risk for iskLol However if i am in Hisec mining i feel that their is no reason for this.

To me the diffrence between hi and low/null is like going from a good neighborhood to the ghetto. It is usually safe in the good areas, little crime, but generally safe. Then you know when you go to the ghetto that their is an inherint chance of somthing bad happening. So that being said i dont mind the PvPers doing what they do. It is just a pain in the ass when you are in hisec trying to mine to help the machine and get suicide ganked from some one who just did it to do it.

Quit your bitching and fly!
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#366 - 2013-05-20 15:28:35 UTC
Alatari Yassavi wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Thats what carebears want EVE to become.


I dont think that is true. I certainly do not. I think (imho) that their is no problem at all for either side, I dabble in PvP, i am not very good atm but i do enjoy it. I also do a large part of mining. The problem i have with PvPers (not all) is when i am mining and they decide to suicide gank me for no reason. That is where i have a problem. If i am in low/null can totally understand this and it comes with the risk for iskLol However if i am in Hisec mining i feel that their is no reason.

You're thinking of it in an incorrect manner. They're not ganking you for no reason. Just for a reason you don't understand or agree with.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#367 - 2013-05-20 15:28:42 UTC
Alatari Yassavi wrote:
[quote=baltec1]
It is just a pain in the ass when you are in hisec trying to mine to help the machine and get suicide ganked from some one who just did it to do it.


Chances are, you were profitable to gank.
Alatari Yassavi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#368 - 2013-05-20 15:33:03 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Alatari Yassavi wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Thats what carebears want EVE to become.


I dont think that is true. I certainly do not. I think (imho) that their is no problem at all for either side, I dabble in PvP, i am not very good atm but i do enjoy it. I also do a large part of mining. The problem i have with PvPers (not all) is when i am mining and they decide to suicide gank me for no reason. That is where i have a problem. If i am in low/null can totally understand this and it comes with the risk for iskLol However if i am in Hisec mining i feel that their is no reason.

You're thinking of it in an incorrect manner. They're not ganking you for no reason. Just for a reason you don't understand or agree with.



But that goes with the whole thing of random crime, i understand, but where is the challenge in taking out a exhumer? if you want to pvp fine have at. i can not exactly shoot you with my mining laser. Hell might as well be playing duck hunt, as much challenge as it is.

Quit your bitching and fly!
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#369 - 2013-05-20 15:33:08 UTC
Alatari Yassavi wrote:
To me the diffrence between hi and low/null is like going from a good neighborhood to the ghetto. It is usually safe in the good areas, little crime, but generally safe. Then you know when you go to the ghetto that their is an inherint chance of somthing bad happening. So that being said i dont mind the PvPers doing what they do. It is just a pain in the ass when you are in hisec trying to mine to help the machine and get suicide ganked from some one who just did it to do it.


Except this is a broken view of the game that CCP is actively working against. There was a long trend to "make money in hisec safety, have arena combat outside it". The problem was that when everyone is making money in hisec, there is no compelling reason to fight outside it.

You will continue to see a transition of activities from hisec to other areas of space, and new coopertaive and competitive hisec gameplay being created that caters to actual "casual" players, instead of to afk multiboxing isk-farmers.

When massive wealth generation moves out of hisec and the vast majority of people in space doing "stuff" are actual newbies and casuals, all these wardec and gank arguments will be meaningless.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#370 - 2013-05-20 15:37:19 UTC
Alatari Yassavi wrote:



But that goes with the whole thing of random crime, i understand, but where is the challenge in taking out a exhumer? if you want to pvp fine have at. i can not exactly shoot you with my mining laser. Hell might as well be playing duck hunt, as much challenge as it is.


Easy isk.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#371 - 2013-05-20 15:37:25 UTC
Alatari Yassavi wrote:

To me the diffrence between hi and low/null is like going from a good neighborhood to the ghetto. It is usually safe in the good areas, little crime, but generally safe. Then you know when you go to the ghetto that their is an inherint chance of somthing bad happening. So that being said i dont mind the PvPers doing what they do. It is just a pain in the ass when you are in hisec trying to mine to help the machine and get suicide ganked from some one who just did it to do it.


Thing is, even living in a "good" area, you're not gonna be exempt from getting violenced (the chances are just very limited, same as in EVE).

Seriously, look at something like CSI -- yeah, it's just a TV show, but they're pretty regularly investigating the murder of some high-roller or person in an otherwise high-class neighborhood. Obviously, there's enough "real world high sec" violence that we can sit down and watch a somewhat believable drama about it for ~45 minutes, and not be like "this is totally bogus".


The only real difference is that people in the real world are deterred by permanent consequences to their actions (multiple life sentences, death row, etc), whereas in New Eden it's effectively a slap on the wrist, and a fine.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#372 - 2013-05-20 15:45:23 UTC
Alatari Yassavi wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Alatari Yassavi wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Thats what carebears want EVE to become.


I dont think that is true. I certainly do not. I think (imho) that their is no problem at all for either side, I dabble in PvP, i am not very good atm but i do enjoy it. I also do a large part of mining. The problem i have with PvPers (not all) is when i am mining and they decide to suicide gank me for no reason. That is where i have a problem. If i am in low/null can totally understand this and it comes with the risk for iskLol However if i am in Hisec mining i feel that their is no reason.

You're thinking of it in an incorrect manner. They're not ganking you for no reason. Just for a reason you don't understand or agree with.



But that goes with the whole thing of random crime, i understand, but where is the challenge in taking out a exhumer? if you want to pvp fine have at. i can not exactly shoot you with my mining laser. Hell might as well be playing duck hunt, as much challenge as it is.

Not everyone is after challenge. Sometimes it's just funny to randomly blow people up.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#373 - 2013-05-20 15:52:52 UTC
Alatari Yassavi wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Alatari Yassavi wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Thats what carebears want EVE to become.


I dont think that is true. I certainly do not. I think (imho) that their is no problem at all for either side, I dabble in PvP, i am not very good atm but i do enjoy it. I also do a large part of mining. The problem i have with PvPers (not all) is when i am mining and they decide to suicide gank me for no reason. That is where i have a problem. If i am in low/null can totally understand this and it comes with the risk for iskLol However if i am in Hisec mining i feel that their is no reason.

You're thinking of it in an incorrect manner. They're not ganking you for no reason. Just for a reason you don't understand or agree with.



But that goes with the whole thing of random crime, i understand, but where is the challenge in taking out a exhumer? if you want to pvp fine have at. i can not exactly shoot you with my mining laser. Hell might as well be playing duck hunt, as much challenge as it is.



Nowhere does anything you do HAVE to be dictated by "challenge".

Probably the reason you mine in the first place. Not really challenging is it?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Lady Areola Fappington
#374 - 2013-05-20 15:53:04 UTC
Alatari Yassavi wrote:


But that goes with the whole thing of random crime, i understand, but where is the challenge in taking out a exhumer? if you want to pvp fine have at. i can not exactly shoot you with my mining laser. Hell might as well be playing duck hunt, as much challenge as it is.



Hi, I regularly take out exhumers, so, here's the answer to your question.

Setting up a gank with a force of -10's is slightly more complex than "warp to, press F1". Step one is scouting your target. No point in wasting catalysts on something you can't explode. From there, it's acquiring a warp-in, be it bookmark, bounce, or a warp to zero bumrush.

After selecting a target, evaluating it's defenses, and deciding your warp-in technique, you then actually move the fleet. The main gank force is normally sitting 2-3 systems away to prevent spooking the target, so toss in the issues and fun of moving outlaws across empire space.

Of course, you're trying to do all that without spooking the target, getting exploded, or many other such things. Should Gank Jesus be smiling, a suicide fleet lands on target within 2500m, and melts the target barge. Then we worry about getting pods out, pulling CONCORD, and all that afterwork.



The challenge is not the shooting. 95% of the work is done well before the shooting starts.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#375 - 2013-05-20 16:00:41 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:


Yes....yes I do. It is no different than any other game mechanic you take advantage of to kill an opponent already at a great disadvantage. Let’s get to the real issue you have....you want to be able to kill miners and Indy at a profit. The ability to kill them is already in the game so nothing broken working as intended. You state even the devs said the mechanic wasn’t working as they hoped. To which I state they have said ganking wasn’t meant to be profitable just possible.

Kill miners all day and night if that’s your thing but do so at your own personal cost...called balance. You may just have to mine and Indy to fund that game play style.

Or heaven forbid go reset someone in null and play against other players trained skilled and ready for pvp, but they wouldn’t be easy mode or provide that misguided since of superiority.




You are conflating a small subset of actions (ganking) around the myriad reasons why someone would want to wardec an industrial corp. Here's a really simple one: You discover a highsec mining group is feeding minerals to the null alliance your own alliance is currently fighting.

The quick way to resolve that, wardec the industrial corp, and start blasting it.

I know they don't teach officers much in OCS, but that's really basic military strategy there. No wonder they wouldn't let you fly the real warplanes with guns on em.


No I am not really conflating anything. It’s ok to use the current mechanics broken or not to inflict pvp on others, and its working as intended yadda yadda yadda then those same mechanics should be used to avoid it regardless of the circumstances.

If it’s good enough for one game play style then it should be good enough for all game play styles..

If you want to cripple a supply chain then do it within the confines of the sandbox and the rule set given.
Lady Areola Fappington
#376 - 2013-05-20 16:18:19 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:


No I am not really conflating anything. It’s ok to use the current mechanics broken or not to inflict pvp on others, and its working as intended yadda yadda yadda then those same mechanics should be used to avoid it regardless of the circumstances.

If it’s good enough for one game play style then it should be good enough for all game play styles..

If you want to cripple a supply chain then do it within the confines of the sandbox and the rule set given.


Adapt and overcome, of course. Awoxing is looking like a more effective way to inflict damage than wardecs were.

Amusingly enough, one of the first things begged for after "Quit a corp instantly" was "Please let us kick people from corp instantly too...and, BTW, let us do it while the kick target is undocked!"

In fact, instant quit makes corp theft a lot easier. Get in, get roles, steal everything, then insta quit, undock and fly away, consequence free.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Alatari Yassavi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#377 - 2013-05-20 16:32:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Alatari Yassavi
Murk Paradox wrote:


Nowhere does anything you do HAVE to be dictated by "challenge".

Probably the reason you mine in the first place. Not really challenging is it?


I dont just mine, i do mine for isk and for the ability to recruit while still doing something productive. I am not an AFK miner, i hate those folks and they have every right to be blown up. I have stated before i do PvP, as well as wormhole, missioning, so on an so forth. So in an answer to you "question", no mining in its self is not hard/challenging. But what i am speaking of is the folks who gank to inflict carnage for no reason other then to watch the explosion. I understand it is a game. One i enjoy as much as you proably do. If for diffrent reasons. So for me the challenge is not to see if i can get in blow some shmuck up and run before CONCORD gets there. it is rather to see what i can make and sell out of the ore i have just procured. It is not for any spicific corps, be it hi/low/null. Where you probably like the bright shiny boom. I like commerce and finding out how to make isk. while some (not all) like to take it, Fine.

Quit your bitching and fly!
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#378 - 2013-05-20 16:46:28 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
If you want to cripple a supply chain then do it within the confines of the sandbox and the rule set given.

Do you realize that in a 'true sandbox' there would be zero rules as to where and what you can do to another player?

What you're asking for is basically the opposite of a sandbox environment, you want the environment to take on the role of shaping your experience more than the interactions of other people; specifically rules of engagement that keep you safe with no effort from yourself.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#379 - 2013-05-20 18:14:11 UTC
Alatari Yassavi wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


Nowhere does anything you do HAVE to be dictated by "challenge".

Probably the reason you mine in the first place. Not really challenging is it?


I dont just mine, i do mine for isk and for the ability to recruit while still doing something productive. I am not an AFK miner, i hate those folks and they have every right to be blown up. I have stated before i do PvP, as well as wormhole, missioning, so on an so forth. So in an answer to you "question", no mining in its self is not hard/challenging. But what i am speaking of is the folks who gank to inflict carnage for no reason other then to watch the explosion. I understand it is a game. One i enjoy as much as you proably do. If for diffrent reasons. So for me the challenge is not to see if i can get in blow some shmuck up and run before CONCORD gets there. it is rather to see what i can make and sell out of the ore i have just procured. It is not for any spicific corps, be it hi/low/null. Where you probably like the bright shiny boom. I like commerce and finding out how to make isk. while some (not all) like to take it, Fine.



It was in your reply that people should only gank because it should be challenging.

I was disputing that claim.

I do alot of pvp, I try to avoid highsec as much as possible, don't spend enough time in lowsec as I'd like (lowsec actually is quite fun) and have adapted to more industrial means in null to fill the hours/lack of wallet flash.

I don't do any of it for the challenge (I recently started trying to FC fleets, that's a challenge!), but for the fun/excitement and sometimes the isk.

Like you said; Eve is a game.

It doesn't HAVE to be challenging. It just has to be fun (atleast for me).

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Daimon Kaiera
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#380 - 2013-05-20 20:33:11 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:

Fit a frig, go jump into FW. Bounce into lowsec, find a dude, shoot them. EVE is PVP, and the sooner you add shiptoasting to your arsenal of weapons, the better.


No, it isn't.
When I want to go do missions for hours on in, I hop in my Drake and start doing them.
When I want to mine, I'll get in my Retriever and do it. (Okay, this is never.)
When I want to go on fleet ops with my corporation (or rather am forced to), I jump clone down to null sec and sit for a few hours whilst everyone gets everything sorted and then get to watch my ship that I didn't want to fly in the first place blow up with the rest of them in failure after a few more hours of preparation. (Last time I got to do Logi!)
When I want to go pvp, I'll hop into my Talwar that I've been meaning to lose and see what's going on in the several low-sec systems by my home system.

Eve is whatever the **** you want to do.
It should be obvious; it's a sandbox.

.... . .-.. .--. / .. / .... .- ...- . / ..-. .- .-.. .-.. . -. / .- -. -.. / .. / -.-. .- -. -. --- - / --. . - / ..- .--. / ... - --- .--. - .... .. ... / ... .. --. -. .- - ..- .-. . / .. -.. . .- / .. ... / -. --- - / ... - --- .-.. . -. / ... - --- .--.