EVE General Discussion

I would like to start a discussion on emergent game play that carebears could undertake. In addition, it is my hope that this post will shed some light on this dynamic that many people seem so obsessed with, and not to beat an already dead horse to a pulp. In the efforts of avoiding the TLDR problems, I'll give you a quick abstract on what I have to say:

EVE is a game based on 'risk vs. reward', without either the game is boring. Carebears and PvPers each need each other, not only economically [which is outside the purview of this post], but psychologically. PvPers provide the 'risk', and Carebears the 'reward'. Keep fighting, keep doing your thing, but stop bitching about it and stop petitioning CCP to remove one or the other. Emergent game play, like the 'burn jita' events is fan-bloody-tastic for the game. Carebears, maybe it is time you fought back in your own way: you form much of the economical backbone of EVE either by generating ISK through missioning or actually producing minerals, modules, ships and other such virtual property. Maybe, since null sec still depends on you, if only [post-odyssey mineral changes] for your delicious tears and money, you could find a way to mess with them...

Let's get one thing out of the way first so this thread doesn't immediately devolve into a 'carebears suck, nullsec blue donut' fight. I encourage carebears and null/low/WH denizens to keep arguing and fighting with each other, in space and on the forums. I also encourage the people who keep encouraging CCP to nerf or remove one or the other from the game to stop typing and try thinking for a little while. Its good for you, and everyone around you.

Here is some theory you can skip if lazy:

EVE is a game about weighing risk an reward - something it delightfully shares with real life without serious permanent consequences - each opposing side largely supplies one aspect of this relationship. PvPers largely provide the risk, and carebears mainly the reward. Carebears die and thus give the PvPers financial and psychological rewards [PvPers thrive on carebear tears]. Carebears, honestly, most things without any element of perceived risk are not fun. You're playing a game, so the real life risk is minimal to truly non-existent. You get your risk through entrepreneurial market manipulation, fighting rats and most importantly, from getting ganked by the PvP community.

Though some of these things go both ways, the carebear poses minute risk to the PvPer and the PvPer [if defeated] poses minute reward to the carebear.

Simply put, whichever side you belong to, you define yourself based on the fact that you do not belong in the other category. If you want to adopt a trite academic standby, you can call it "the Other". It is forming an identity by discerning yourself from a group you dislike or with whom you disagree.

PvPers look down upon carebears as being cowards, or perhaps not living up to the massively multiplayer and risk aspects of the game. In some cases I am sure that is true. There are also likely carebears who play the game in their limited free time, enjoy some of its less adrenaline motivated aspects and who truly like playing a game without any risks. This is good, it is what makes EVE a wonderful sandbox of opportunity, and not just a 3rd person shooter in spaceships.

Carebears, you too need the PvPers, for the same reason of self-identity. They [at least to some of you] are loathsome and malicious pirates who seemingly just want to do you harm and destroy your hard work. However, without them, you would not be carebears, you would just be industrialists, missioners who could be playing the game single-player. There would be no true risk to your operations. Without risk, there would be little reward other than accumulating absurd amounts of wealth that you would only use to make more wealth and so on... There would be no conquering of space, no rush that comes from defeating the odds, mastering danger and much less patting yourself on the back for making a wise decision. That risk-less fake money making game exists, it is called Excel. Or perhaps, if you are an unrealistically optimistic economist, that game is called 'mutual funds'. In EVE however, you would get bored, stop playing and the game would cease to exist. Carebears are the backbone of the EVE economy and provide much reason for PvPers to play in the first place.

End theory

So great, you need each other. Big deal, someone else has said this before, though maybe without considering this angle. What may be a new idea to some is that we need to keep fighting each other, but in new ways. Maybe however, there needs to be a new type of fighting. Carebear style.


Emergent game play. Burn Jita, Hulkageddon, ice interdictions and any massive culling of hi-sec is awesome for the game. Destroyed ships = money for CCP just as bored/absent carebears = less money for CCP. . Destroyed ISK means more people playing to get that ISK back and more people playing to destroy more ISK. More people in an MMO = better for everyone. It's also plain old fun and excitement.

I'm not a particularly good carebear or PvPer, but I have done both, and I know the notion of getting carebears [who are defined by their meekness] to do something like fight is a stretch. But for goodness sake, you probably have testicles underneath your Startrek tighty-whiteys, so use 'em! Someone in a different post here suggested that carebears suddenly climb into PvP fit T3s and blitz null sec. That is a great way to get ganked and pillaged and to feed null more hi-sec tears. Who enjoys spaceship gang ****? 9 out of 10 people.

Carebears, fight PvPers with your own weapons, not theirs. Your weapon is hi-sec space and most of what it contains. Use it.

So here is my challenge to the EVE community: How could carebears fight the PvPers in a way that did not involve actually blowing them up?

That is nonsense. The game just needs people doing industry and significant portion of the PvP population I've met are industrials too. They like to PvP, but also mine, invent, produce and do PI with their spare time. There are very few people who actually just PvP or define themselves solely through it. Most players take part in various activities and other players don't feel the need to define them as other or put them in a confrontational position. They're just other players, that play the game in their own way and that's where it ends.

There is a lot of hate towards carebears, but that's because they aren't just people doing PvE activities. Carebears in EVE actively avoid any kind of PvP at all costs, complain endlessly when it happens to them and even try to remove it from certain areas of the game entirely. People who like EVE as a multiplayer sandbox have great reasons for hating them and carebears defined this way are in no way necessary to the game.

Your whole view of the situation just seems weird to me anyway. It's like you read some forum vomit and built your grand theory based on it. It might be a problem with you not defining your terms, so it's unclear what you exactly refer to with the term carebear. It could be, that you just meant people who do PvE, but since almost everyone does it, that isn't much of a problem to most EVE players if any. I think you might have some good points about how some people have adopted this confrontational attitude and used it to define who they are and who the other is, but that's about it.

Now I've never been the sharpest butter knife in the crayon box...but what is your point?

Play to have fun...anything else is pointless.

EVE is dying...

Actually both groups are as bad as each other, although to be more exact a small percentage of both groups.

Meine augen!


/not this crap again

Carebears don't care

fixed it for u

James 315 has one of the best examples of emergent gameplay.

So did the dude who came up with "awoxing".

What is this absurd notion of a "real pvper" you have? Shooting some scrub in a mining barge is as real and valid as engaging a supercap fleet. PVP is PVP. Carebears like to imply, through the use of the term "real pvp", that PVP done against them specifically is somehow less valid, less ~honourable~, etc but ... I think it's just bs they use to make themselves feel better about the poor (for the situation they found themselves in) decisions they made themselves.

It's very dishonest to claim PVP you don't like isn't "real".