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Wormholes

 
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About plans on Cap. Escalation nerf and "ovepopulated wormholes"

First post
Author
Strom Crendraven
Awakened Ones
#161 - 2013-05-17 04:23:15 UTC
I can't believe you morons through incessant whining just like the null and low sec crowd have brought the most destructive force in the universe to WH's...CCP. I hate you all! Maybe if you all shut the f*** up for a few months the evil eye will turn back to destroying Hi/Low/Null sec and us true WH dwellers will be forgotten about. If you dont like WH space exactly the way it is GTFO and go join a null whineliance where you belong or whatever else floats your boat. If your stupid enough to invite the tards who have ruined every other aspect of the game into our little world ill see you crying here when they destroy it. A pox on you all
Kalel Nimrott
Caldari Provisions
#162 - 2013-05-17 04:39:07 UTC
Simple, we do a lot of money, we throw a lot of money. If this change, I won`t have fun, I won`t play. I'm out.
Its their call if they want my suscription or not. I wont tell them how to run their bussines, but I am going to make the decisión if I want to be a costumer.

Bob Artis, you will be missed.

O7

grassy 420
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#163 - 2013-05-17 04:59:13 UTC
i'll agree with escalations we'd ghetto ass mo'fo's .. The 1 dude with 10 alts farming for months on end with no pvp is down right wrong and should be dealth with.. they are seriously taking advantage of what we have going on our c5/6's ..

if they do get rid of escalations however, I don't see wh pvp be at all what it is now.. bling 24inch rims t3's..which is sad. that's what draws me in.. and I know a lot of people .. high roller per say...

I don't see why colonzing wh's is really such a bad thing.. we already know everything there is to know about wh's just off of forums posts .. people like talocan united... eve survival .. ect..

What I would like to see is making wh's vast.. so many holes chain collapsing is to much to handle.. as it is now chain collapsing in c5's can be rough if you have a slow crew... .. c6's ok yes.. easy.

Chainging Ai. ai is like going to work.. same **** dif day.. we know exctaly how many and where.. intensify the AI.. Sometimes the AI can be a lil dumb.. they'll switch target when they are breaking someone tank or neuting the target that is most vunelrable. Or even just spwaing random sleeprs on wh's or something,(get your hauler poped by sleepers lol) just a thought.

I hope CCP does address wh's soon. they are not the unknown anymore. more of a place to make lots of isk and great pvp imo.

sorry for grammer and spelling
Slaktoid
Perkone
Caldari State
#164 - 2013-05-19 03:51:51 UTC
The wormhole farmers thing... I did an experiment in a C6 Pulsar, it lasted about half a year and I published my findings to Two Step and made him post it on the CSM forum about 2 months ago.

First I wanna say that the guys in C1-C4 probably won’t know much of these things. I started out in a C2 back in March 2009, and it was fantastic fun, but C5 and C6 space is quite different. Second, my intentions has always been to improve on the W-Space concept, and make life difficult for the farmers. Many of you probably won’t believe that since I did a lot of farming myself. That’s fine, the chips will fall as they may.

Some people will hate me for posting this, but I think those that are willing to defend the “WH way of life” will probably agree that some changes might be warranted. There are many, many more details we could have delved into, but the post was somewhat hastily put together and one has to draw the line somewhere. Also, take some of the numbers I wrote with a pinch of salt. Again - the post was hastily written from practical experience, not empirical data.

So these are some of the things I’m tinkering with when not welping PVE Moroses. Enjoy ;-)

Quote:
This is basically a guide on how 2 people can work together and make 20 billion isk pr week. And only spending about 2 hours pr day, 4 days a week to accomplish this. Use with care =)

Hi!

I'm Slaktoid, member of Aperture Harmonics. I've been testing out a few ideas on how to make money in W-Space as efficient as possible. What I'm about to outline here is known to few, but I'm far from the only one doing this. I am probably the only one willing to speak up about it, since the isk is so damn good. All CSM and W-Space CSM candidates I've spoken to have been unaware of quite how effective this is.

We're talking about farming sleepers in C5/C6 Wormholes. I'm not using any kind of botting software or the like. After a while of testing I've come up with what I think is the "best" way of doing this the legit way. The TL;DR is that 2 people tripleboxing capitals can make around 1.4-1.5 bill isk pr hour (each), as long as there are Cosmic Anomalies (Combat Sites) to run. Lets discuss how this can happen.

Due to the mechanics of how Cosmic Anomalies work, you can farm the Capital Escalation waves in the same site for 4 days in a row before it despawns. If you finish all normal waves in the site, it will despawn, so what I'm talking about here is to only farm the Escalation waves (28 Sleepless Guardians) and all ships in the first wave, except the trigger for the 2nd wave. This last ship you leave alive and either just warp off, or (if it's a scrambler) jam it then warp off. The site will not despawn now since you've not triggered the next wave, and after next downtime, you can farm another set of escalations (28 Sleepless Guardians).

Now normally you have subcaps to web down and paint sleepers, and this creates a soft-cap of how many capitals you can warp in at the same time. If you warp in 2 carriers and 2 dreads and trigger all Capital Escalation Waves at once, you run some risk of having your webbing/painting subcaps (eg. Huginns, Rapiers, Lokis) volleyed off the field by the 28 Sleepless Guardians that spawn. Although I should say that maxed off-grid boosts with skirmish mindlink makes even this a very minor risk, but people normally don't trigger all waves due to the neuting pressure the Sleepless Guardians can put on the ships.

As part of eliminating risk I looked at how I could run sites with only capitals. Skipping the subcaps altogether. This ensures that I don't have any squishy targets that will put extra stress on the triage. We can sit back, relax and just farm isk in supersafe capitals that can easily survive all the dps. I will talk about risk (or the lack there of) later in this post.

The Core of my setup can be run with 2 people (and we have tried this). We got a few more in the system, so usually we run sites with 3-5. This discussion is about maximizing isk pr hour, so lets assume 2 people triplebox 3 capitals each. To balance workload (once again, tested in actual practice) I will make one person triplebox Moroses. The other Person will triplebox 2 carriers and a Rorqual.

Moros tracking enables you to hit Sleepless Guardians well without webbing them down. They will burn at your group and eventually settle in a 35km orbit around you with approx 175 ms speed. The 2 carriers will be triage fit, and occationally used to kill non-trigger frigs and cruisers that scramble. Only one of the carriers will need to triage a single cycle to keep the Rorqual alive in the beginning when 3 escalation waves have been triggered (20 Sleepless Guardians plus the sites first wave of Sleepers). The other carrier is just there to trigger the last escalation wave (8 Sleepless Guardians).

Now the Rorqual is the key in this fleet setup. It's job is twofold. First off it's able to keep up with the salvage as the Moroses are killing sleepers. Second it has 6 target painters fitted in it's midslots (it doesn't need tank with the triage carrier there). Due to the cycle time of the painters I needed to fit 6 paints so I could put 3 paints on primary and 3 on secondary, ensuring that all Sleepless Guardians are painted by 3 paints at all times. The reason for this is that the dreads kill the Sleepless Guardians quicker than one cycle of Target Painters.
Slaktoid
Perkone
Caldari State
#165 - 2013-05-19 03:52:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Slaktoid
cont'd

Quote:
Typically we clear each site in 15 minutes (3 siege cycles). Each site yield about 750 million isk average in bluebooks and nanoribbons (more if we finish all "normal" waves as well, but we don't bother with that as the frig/cruiser killing slows down the overall isk pr hour). Quick math comes to 3 bill pr hour, split on two persons. Again it's worth noting that you don't have an everlasting supply of Combat Sites. You typically get 1-2 every day, although there are ways to increase the spawn rate (triggering other peoples sites so they despawn after 4-5 days). I've not done the math on the total amount of sites we have on average, but I suspect we have around 8 sites pr week. By stretching those 8 sites out and running them every day for 4 days we can generally make around 20-30 billion isk pr week from one wormhole. The best part: It will only take a couple of hours pr day.

Now imagine if I had the time to do this all day. If I didn't have a job or social life for example. I could take 3-4 wormholes (it's easy, everyone is too bored to evict farmers) and multiply this to the nth degree (again, this has been done by certain people). Instead of making 20 bill in 2 hours a day, 4 days a week, we could maybe make 60-70 bill in 6 hours a day, 4 days a week. And I'm certain there are people out there who can double this kind of labor and produce the funds to buy a titan every week. RMT does come to mind when I see all this potential for isk.


I'm probably boring you. Lets get to the important part. How do we fix this? I think there is a couple of solutions.

1. Nerfing the tracking of the Moros some would say. But you could always chug strong boosters and fit for even more tracking, so I'm not a huge fan of that (tho I feel the
Moros is completely overpowered).

2. Starting the despawn timer as soon as you kill the first Sleepless Guardian. This would ensure that you couldn't farm the same site 4 days in a row.

3. Increasing the orbit speed of the Sleepless Guardians. If they orbited at 35km with 250 ms speed, even the Moros would have huge problems hitting the Sleepers. You'd be forced to bring subcaps to web down the Sleepers and that would require more manpower. It's very important here NOT to decrease the orbit distance, since I would then fit officer webs on the dreads and kill Sleepers even faster. They need to orbit outside boosted officer web range.

4. Randomizing triggers and making all Sleepers scram.

5. Most importantly: INCREASE RISK LEVELS!


Lets talk about risk for a moment. We've been in our test system for quite some time (6-7 months or so, I can't remember). We've not had much focus on maximizing isk gains, but we have made a decent amount of money. So far we've lost a dread due to getting sloppy and rich and not caring about the risk levels. We collectively replaced that 5 billion Faction/Deadspace fitted Moros in 2-3 hours, jumped a new one in the next day and continued as if nothing had happened. How do we stay safe and make isk with virtually no risk. There is a few things going on:

1. Crit your static. By doing this noone can come up the chain and gank us.

2. Collapse all other wormholes (K162).

3. Keep a probe out at all times that cover the entire system. When someone connects to us we will see the new signature on scan, finish our site and warp back to the safety of the POS. With our full fleet setup (5-6 guys) we can run each site in 5 minutes flat. That's right, even if the hostiles connect as we enter siege, they will have to work fast to catch us.

4. Never run sites on weekends, the risk of other groups connecting is way higher than weekdays due to the higher activity. Wormspace on Monday-Thursday around DT +/- 4 hours is safer than highsec.

5. On top of all this, there are very few groups in W-Space that can actually challenge a capital fleet in a Pulsar. This is due to how incredibly overpowered a C5/C6 pulsar is with its double shields, double cap regen and double ship sig size. There are ways to beat it, but I don't really want to go into that with this post. Suffice to say, I'm never worried about getting jumped.

I haven't talked about why I want things changed, but I assume it's obvious. The more small groups of farmers we have in W-Space, the more Critted wormholes you will run into in your chain. These groups offer little in terms of pvp, our primary goal is to make money. And moneymaking on this scale is not to just plex our accounts. 2 people can fund a titan pr month and not even break a sweat. I don't want to point fingers, but I suspect there are large scale RMT operations based out of W-Space.

Let me know if you have any questions.

- Slaktoid


Also I didn't mention taking it to the very extreme and soloing everything. A process that in reality is quite simple by using for example ISBoxer or even simple Autohotkey scripts. Somewhere around 2.5b pr hour, anyone?
Joan Greywind
The Lazy Crabs
Hull Penetration
#166 - 2013-05-19 10:19:40 UTC
First off when you bring boxing in all bets are off. boxing 3 accounts is not that easy and requires more than one screen to say the least. If you are using isn boxer then you can have other high sources of income that come close to the amount in wormholes. You can box 10 accounts and do incursions for a cool 1.2b an hour (already happening). you can also box 20 hulks and mine deep in sov null. And you said it the sites in wh are not infinite you can only do so many (unlike the other sources). The argument that you can do it in more than one hole is flimsy at best, since you need to have capitals and accounts in other holes (significant investment).

I agree with you that the risk is low and the sites should be harder, I especially like the idea about making the mass of the hole more random. But at the end of the day it is not that broken. The fact that it is finite makes them limited.

And two people can't do the sites + salvage + scan at a reliable rate (if you do you have more skills than the average eve player and you deserve to make extra isk). Also in the calculation of isk per hour should also include scanning time, criting the hole, hauling the stuff, and all the logistics needed to make your lives possible in the wh.

Again I'm not saying that it is perfect, risk should be increased, and there should be moar opportunities for pvp, but at the end of the day for the amount of effort it is comparable to other sources of income at this level of gameplay.


Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#167 - 2013-05-19 11:26:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
ok, so I really don't get the issue here.
do capital escalations make lots of isk? sure. but why is this a problem?

Like slaktoid said, running escalations isnt hard and his method isnt as optimized as it can be either, mostly because optimazing down to 10min per site is just not worth the effort, even tho it can be done, but looking at the isk income when run by 1-2 people isnt a valid argument. you need to look at it per active account.
As Joan's post above mentioned, there are other professions that get multiboxed far more and for far more steady income.

Escalations are also extremely limited. You don't have an endless amount of sites, like incursions, so youre only running a few a day over a long period of time, even if you are just a farmer.

Yes, I also run escalations for isk. sometimes with others, sometimes by myself.
It's also something ive invested probably 1.5-2 years of training accross 5 accounts to be able to do and I do so without any multiboxing software.
Something like ISBoxing mining fleets or incursion fleets takes tons less time and effort to do for similar or higher end profits.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Slaktoid
Perkone
Caldari State
#168 - 2013-05-19 12:28:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Slaktoid
Note that I'm not advocating for a blanket nerf of the value of wormholes. I feel they are where they should be to maintain small to medium corps or alliances. The issue I have is that it's so incredibly easy to do this, once you got the means and the knowledge to do it. When I can multibox the hardest content in the game, while watching a movie...maybe something should be looked at? And I'm by no means some kind of superhuman robot.

The fact of the matter is that, while it's incredibly boring, I could 5box this content and plex those 5 accounts by almost a factor of 1 month pr hour. I totally agree that you have to look at it from a "pr account efficiency", but I still feel it's maybe too high, compared to the relatively low risk levels and how easy it is.

If you guys feel it's fairly balanced, then maybe it is. I'm not always right.


As for the argument from Joan Greywind that it's not possible to do in multiple wormholes. Well, I used to do a lot of intelligence work in W-Space, and I would have a lot of scouts deployed here and there. I was scanning a ton and generally keeping up with most of the stuff going on in wormholes. At one point Power of Two held over 10 c6/c5 systems (mostly c6), and we pretty much had to give up on trying to kick them out. We were succeeding only in destroying our own morale. Nowadays they've broken into multiple corps, presumably to "fly under the radar", but I'm not as informed as I once were. You can bash Power of Two as much as you want (I used to be in that category), but the fact is that they were every bit as much a W-Space pioneer as anyone else. They were highly organized and took W-Space to a level noone believed was possible, and few of us even have the creativity to understand what they did and why.
Meytal
Doomheim
#169 - 2013-05-20 13:50:51 UTC
Slaktoid wrote:
2. Starting the despawn timer as soon as you kill the first Sleepless Guardian. This would ensure that you couldn't farm the same site 4 days in a row.

This is basically what I have been advocating, though not necessarily despawning the site so much as making sure you only get one escalation: if you escalate the site, it does not escalate again. The despawn timer starts as normal, once the site is activated. Once sites despawn, increase the length of time before they respawn in that system. This is supposedly done in lower class W-space, so why not in C5/C6? The value you receive from your static should be greater than the value you receive from your home system. This would at least encourage movement, and thus danger.

Hisec is farmed in the same manner. Botters and farmers will keep the high-valued missions open for the full 7 days and just repeatedly farm the battleships from them because they respawn after downtime. I'd assume the Null plexes could be in a similar status.

Ideally, IMO, nothing should respawn in any site/mission/etc once it's destroyed. I'm not sure CCP is willing to go that far though because it might be too much work, increased DB storage and queries, etc.


And then to help catch the "farmers", add those short-lived random connections between wormhole systems that prefer active systems.

The rest is really up to us. When the Nullbears come to farm W-space, put up a defenseless stick, and log off instead of fight, we need to consider their presence to be an economic decision, and take the time to destroy the tower and try to catch whatever we can. Like you said though, it can be morale-crushing because it's so easy for the farmers to bounce back.