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The fight between PvPers and carebears really is the carebears' fault.

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#281 - 2013-05-18 03:02:23 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
LittleTerror wrote:
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
So youre saying we should remove CONCORD.

agreed.

That would be a quick way to completely kill this game.

No, players could replace concord and even do a better job at it but there still needs to be more tools and Intel for those players to do that.

So what you're saying is...basically nullsec.

The place that is too safe, yet too dangerous, too rich, but too poor, totally empty, but full of blobs?

Sounds like it. Nullsec is really an interesting place.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#282 - 2013-05-18 03:09:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
We don't really need to remove CONCORD as much as we need to make it a supplementary force to help with player policing.

CONCORD at best should be a quick-response unit that tackles the perp and drops a beacon for players to warp to, while itself having NPC stats and therefore vulnerable to players. At worst, it should be a timed kill trigger the way it is now (or just do lots of dps), but at least either give players a chance to escape, or have a slower response time to make players responsible for tackling perps.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Lady Areola Fappington
#283 - 2013-05-18 03:10:05 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

Sounds like it. Nullsec is really an interesting place.



I look forward to visiting some day, just as soon as my Goonswarm app gets finished. That 500mil deposit kind of stung, but getting all my officer fit CNRs and ratting Tengus shipped up helped!

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Miss Altiana
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#284 - 2013-05-18 03:16:08 UTC
No matter how we twist and turn, carebears, pvers, pvpers and rpers, we are all in Eve together, im not going to ewen try justify who is right, couse i think we are all right in our own way.

Im still learning this game, im mining, exploring in high sec, doing missions in highsec, and with it im building up fortune, ships and understanding of the game, im starting to investigate pvp, and null, but i still dont feel im up for it, maybe im slow, but thats how i enjoy this game, this said, im fully aware i can be jumped any time by anyone, and thats something i like.

I have other miners ask me while i mine in a skiff or a proc in highsec, its kinda simple really, i still make money and if gankers come, they will choose me last ;P, and all those macs, orcas and hulks will get it before me, also skiffs and procs is bascially to fast to be bumped.

Its same with when i run L4s, i generally pick tank and restances first, 200k ehp +, is not rare, sure it takes me alittle longer to do the missions, but whenyour scanned down, im rather certain others will be picked since im not a opted dps glass cannon.

The thrill of eve is allways there, your never safe in eve, and ewen if i got ganked, well it probably make my day, nothing to get upset about, dont fly what you cant afford to loose, and usually with the "tanks" i have, it will cost the gankers more then me.

Alot of you, probably think this is boring, and you are perfectly alright to think that, you dont have to play like this ;P, i enjoy it for now, but i know the ganker lurks out there, as much as the pvper, or rper, in the end we need to find that balance to alow each of us to do what we do, and the rules as they are do that fairly well !
Lady Areola Fappington
#285 - 2013-05-18 03:18:09 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
We don't really need to remove CONCORD as much as we need to make it a supplementary force to help with player policing.

CONCORD at best should be a quick-response unit that tackles the perp and drops a beacon for players to warp to, while itself having NPC stats and therefore vulnerable to players. At worst, it should be a timed kill trigger the way it is now (or just do lots of dps), but at least either give players a chance to escape, or have a slower response time to make players responsible for tackling perps.


IMHO, the biggest mistake CCP made was creating the hard barriers between 0.5-0.4 and 0.1-0.0.

A more logical answer to CONCORD would be having CONCORD response be a percentage of security status. 1.0=100%, it's the good part of town near the police station. 0.1=10% chance of CONCORD showing up, it's the really bad section of town where nobody stops for stoplights and the police just drive through.

You could even have social skills modifiers. "F* Tha Police!" each level reduces CONCORD response chance by 5%. "Member of the F.O.P" 5% increase chance of CONCORD responding.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#286 - 2013-05-18 03:18:22 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
We don't really need to remove CONCORD as much as we need to make it a supplementary force to help with player policing.

CONCORD at best should be a quick-response unit that tackles the perp and drops a beacon for players to warp to, while itself having NPC stats and therefore vulnerable to players. At worst, it should be a timed kill trigger the way it is now (or just do lots of dps), but at least either give players a chance to escape, or have a slower response time to make players responsible for tackling perps.

Not likely, given how they have had their response time carefully speeded up until it's current state,

If anything, more balancing by adding speed is necessary.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#287 - 2013-05-18 03:25:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
I wouldn't make CONCORD evasion a chance-based thing, especially based on security status of systems. It should be players' responsibility to fight/fly/evade well, not a random number generator's.

Miss Altiana wrote:
Im still learning this game, im mining, exploring in high sec, doing missions in highsec, and with it im building up fortune, ships and understanding of the game, im starting to investigate pvp, and null, but i still dont feel im up for it, maybe im slow, but thats how i enjoy this game, this said, im fully aware i can be jumped any time by anyone, and thats something i like.

You don't know what you're missing, honestly. Also, the longer you wait, the more of a chance that you'll get entrenched into a carebear mentality. It will be harder, not easier to get into pvp the longer you wait.

Alavaria Fera wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
We don't really need to remove CONCORD as much as we need to make it a supplementary force to help with player policing.

CONCORD at best should be a quick-response unit that tackles the perp and drops a beacon for players to warp to, while itself having NPC stats and therefore vulnerable to players. At worst, it should be a timed kill trigger the way it is now (or just do lots of dps), but at least either give players a chance to escape, or have a slower response time to make players responsible for tackling perps.

Not likely, given how they have had their response time carefully speeded up until it's current state,

If anything, more balancing by adding speed is necessary.

Please don't do this to me. :(

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Lady Areola Fappington
#288 - 2013-05-18 03:35:54 UTC
Miss Altiana wrote:
No matter how we twist and turn, carebears, pvers, pvpers and rpers, we are all in Eve together, im not going to ewen try justify who is right, couse i think we are all right in our own way.

Im still learning this game, im mining, exploring in high sec, doing missions in highsec, and with it im building up fortune, ships and understanding of the game, im starting to investigate pvp, and null, but i still dont feel im up for it, maybe im slow, but thats how i enjoy this game, this said, im fully aware i can be jumped any time by anyone, and thats something i like.

I have other miners ask me while i mine in a skiff or a proc in highsec, its kinda simple really, i still make money and if gankers come, they will choose me last ;P, and all those macs, orcas and hulks will get it before me, also skiffs and procs is bascially to fast to be bumped.

Its same with when i run L4s, i generally pick tank and restances first, 200k ehp +, is not rare, sure it takes me alittle longer to do the missions, but whenyour scanned down, im rather certain others will be picked since im not a opted dps glass cannon.

The thrill of eve is allways there, your never safe in eve, and ewen if i got ganked, well it probably make my day, nothing to get upset about, dont fly what you cant afford to loose, and usually with the "tanks" i have, it will cost the gankers more then me.

Alot of you, probably think this is boring, and you are perfectly alright to think that, you dont have to play like this ;P, i enjoy it for now, but i know the ganker lurks out there, as much as the pvper, or rper, in the end we need to find that balance to alow each of us to do what we do, and the rules as they are do that fairly well !



I recommend FW to anyone who wants to learn PVP. Ask in militia chat about fits, how to do things, how to work in fleets, important stuff.

If you stick to novice/small plexes, you'll only have to worry about frigs and dessies jumping you...and with the accel gate, you can see them coming on Dscan. Frigs are cheap and fun.

The most important tip I can give, is don't be afraid to lose, and don't be angry when your ship/pod explodes. Every death is a learning experience, and most PVPers will talk your ear off after a fight, as long as you don't act like a carebear.


Gallant: "Hey man, good fight, you crushed me! How'd you do it? Can you give me some tips on fits, I'm new at PVP. Got any skillplan tips?"

Goofus: "FU U JUST RUINED MY GAME THAT WAS ALL THE ISK I HAD I'M RUINED SCREW THIS I'M QUITTING YOU PSYCHO!!!!1"

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#289 - 2013-05-18 08:53:46 UTC
Lin Suizei wrote:
... near-absolute safety in highsec...
As I tell outraged miners who are ganked, "Concord isn't there to protect... just punish."

You can still kill anyone you want in Highsec, that hasn't change. What has changed is that CCP has adjusted the 'cost' of committing those criminal acts.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#290 - 2013-05-18 09:01:23 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:

Griefing is someone that plays in a style where their enjoyment comes from causing pain to others. They are not fighting to gain something of value or to protect some resource or control a system. They are not fighting with people, becuase those people enjoy fighting back, as in faction warfare or RvB where both sides are enjoying themselves.

A griefer is someone playing in a way that gets then nothing of value beyond the jollies from hurting others. ...
I don't believe CCP defines 'Griefer' that way. However, the game style you describe is acceptable, expected, and supported by CCP.
Tubrug1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#291 - 2013-05-18 10:46:56 UTC
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
So youre saying we should remove CONCORD.

agreed.


That would be a quick way to completely kill this game.


WTS Estamel's Modified Sarcasm Detector.

Writer of The Eve Onion

I have a Twitter
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#292 - 2013-05-18 12:36:24 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
We don't really need to remove CONCORD as much as we need to make it a supplementary force to help with player policing.

CONCORD at best should be a quick-response unit that tackles the perp and drops a beacon for players to warp to, while itself having NPC stats and therefore vulnerable to players. At worst, it should be a timed kill trigger the way it is now (or just do lots of dps), but at least either give players a chance to escape, or have a slower response time to make players responsible for tackling perps.

I disagree. Its the way it is because gankers cant control themselves. Your suggestion would make it far too unbalanced in favor of ganking. Itd be pointless doing anything else.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#293 - 2013-05-18 12:54:42 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I disagree. Its the way it is because gankers cant control themselves. Your suggestion would make it far too unbalanced in favor of ganking. Itd be pointless doing anything else.


suicide gankers don't need to control themselves because the game has had mechanics to keep them in check for years, see the 15 minute GCC timer that effectively keeps you docked for 15 minutes

even the most active ganking campaigns have only spawned /maybe/ one or two hundred ganks per day, at most, and I'm talking about the very peak of hulkageddon

consider that: ~1000 suicide ganks per week is enough to send people into an absolute panic where they all whine on the forums about being victims and compare it to the holocaust, the pogroms and every other historical atrocity, but worse

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#294 - 2013-05-18 12:55:08 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
We don't really need to remove CONCORD as much as we need to make it a supplementary force to help with player policing.

CONCORD at best should be a quick-response unit that tackles the perp and drops a beacon for players to warp to, while itself having NPC stats and therefore vulnerable to players. At worst, it should be a timed kill trigger the way it is now (or just do lots of dps), but at least either give players a chance to escape, or have a slower response time to make players responsible for tackling perps.

I disagree. Its the way it is because gankers cant control themselves. Your suggestion would make it far too unbalanced in favor of ganking. Itd be pointless doing anything else.

Not putting three billion ISK worth of items inside a two-million-ISK ship with three thousand EHP would be a good start.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Velicitia
XS Tech
#295 - 2013-05-18 13:13:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
baltec1 wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:

I would never link you a character name, because many people on this board would LOVE to know who I am in game.

If I were to give you the name of my main, I think you'd be shocked at my KB stats.


I bet we wouldn't.


If I link my main you... oh wait, I post with my main.

also, my kb is terribad Cool

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#296 - 2013-05-18 13:20:30 UTC
Every NPC alt is a top-level director in whatever nullsec alliance is the flavor of the month and a PvP maven.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#297 - 2013-05-18 13:31:10 UTC
Fernando MRuiz wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Fernando MRuiz wrote:
EI Digin wrote:
I hate to break it to you guys but there are no PVE game styles in this game that completely isolate you from everyone else in the community.

Every action you take effects the actions other players take.

There are no carebears, pvers, etc in this game. We are all competing against eachother in one way or another.

We are all PVPers, whether you like it or not.


Alternately, if the E part of a game is all/mostly players, PvE and PvP are synonymous?



Player Vs Player
Player Vs Environment (server generated content)

If the E represented that... then uhm, I guess lol.


Hmm... if one considers the character creation screens to be part of the environment on a small level...

...holy smoke, I think we could be onto a new school of thought here!



LOL well, for gamers that predate the WoW era we have always known that pvp was versus players, and pve was versus environment (mobs, npcs etc). So when people erroneously say pvp is combat... in a game like eve... it's irritating =)

People like to think pve is versus Everyone, which is a misnomer. It's "environment".

That's the difference between mmorpg and mmo open world sandbox games. That's why we say things like "industrialist" and "combat".

o/

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#298 - 2013-05-18 13:34:34 UTC
Do you even PvP? I didn't even know there was a secret war going on between PvPer's and care bears.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#299 - 2013-05-18 13:38:02 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Hello Shao,

I very much enjoyed your synopsis of the conversation that you are apparently involved in with Mayhaw Morgan. This is doubly wonderful as I have no prior knowledge of the discussion!

I read through twice trying to discern if Mayhaw is a bear or a PvPer. Most of the post makes me think he is a pvper. But the last question of his that you quoted seems to come from a bear.

"The problem is: "How do PVPers account for the fact that carebears are successful in EVE when it is supposed to be a PVP game?". I look forward to hearing their answer."

To answer this question from my own perspective; Eve is not supposed to be solely a flying in space pvp game, it is as much about resource management and crafting. Bears are successful at that activities because they enjoy them.

Your primary question to Mayhaw seemed to be "I would be interested to know if you think meaning/value are something pre-given, self occurring, or whether they are constructed?"
I am going to answer this for myself without the usual social interaction that would occur between us in another setting. I'm mildly sorry for interrupting, but the question is too interesting to let go of.

Eve is a completely contrived world, the objects there have no physical manifestation to give them weight or use in the physical world. By some definitions this means that they do not exist at all. And yet in Eve people do in fact act as though these items have quantifiable value beyond that which most non corporeal objects have.

For instance a free mp3 that someone has downloaded onto a computer, it takes time to find the mp3 and then to find a program to hack it. But if lost to data corruption most people would not be very concerned. In Eve an item like a battle cruiser would probably take the same amount of time and effort to create. And yet when approaching a fight ones heart may race a bit and palms may sweat along with other fight or flight reactions. If lost in that battle there is a period of melancholy and minor grieving process. I would like to posit these reactions hold true for a majority of people.

I strongly suspect that this reaction offers great clues to the origin of intrinsic valuations. The mental/biochemical process that we go through while interacting with the battle cruiser is quite involved and also similar to the process used when interacting with many other objects in Eve.

There is a desire to accomplish an objective, a choosing of tools and acknowledgement that they are going to be at risk, a constant weighing of the risk v reward relationship that the object has with "world" around it, and finally a completion of the original objective or a realization of loss.

Perhaps the value that we put on all objects comes directly from this process or one like it.

Kindest regards

Corey Fumimasa


Just because a hammer is meant to bash things together with hardware doesn't mean it cannot be used for a screwdriver. Just bear in mind a hammer is not defined as being a screwdriver.

Like Eve, you have a main function, and many ways to accomplish that main function. HOW you do it is the excitement.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Alatari Yassavi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#300 - 2013-05-18 14:23:34 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
We don't really need to remove CONCORD as much as we need to make it a supplementary force to help with player policing.

CONCORD at best should be a quick-response unit that tackles the perp and drops a beacon for players to warp to, while itself having NPC stats and therefore vulnerable to players. At worst, it should be a timed kill trigger the way it is now (or just do lots of dps), but at least either give players a chance to escape, or have a slower response time to make players responsible for tackling perps.


I do agree with this.... i feel CONCORD is too strong and should be brought back from ungodly one shot kill to give someone a chance to actually take them out and try and escape. Like a police shoot out... you know the outcome, but you want to see the how.

Quit your bitching and fly!