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(Proposal) Replace static ore / ice belts with scanable sites

Author
Voddick
AFK
#1 - 2011-10-28 02:30:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Voddick
Issue
Respawning belts just don’t make sense from a RP or anti-bot perspective. Remove them from the game and spawn random, small ice and ore Gravimetric sites instead. Idea


Criteria
It is critical that these mining sites in empire be accessible from the system scanner and not probes to ensure mining remains ‘new-player’ friendly. These sites should be small enough to last 30 minutes or so (40,000 m3) in a hulk before running out of ore. Also, a site despawn time of 3 to 4 hours should be set to ensure that fresh sites are always available.


Low Sec
Low sec should have full access to the high end ores and ice currently found only in null sec. They should also offer increasing quantities of ore to facilitate large, group mining ops. Everyone knows that no one bothers mining in low sec because the ore value is trivial. Low sec is every bit, if not more dangerous than null sec. The rewards should reflect this.


Null Sec
Low and null sec mining sites should require scan probes to find to reflect their difficulty and value. Without this mechanic low sec roams would consist of jumping into a system, hitting scan and then warping in on a “helpless” mining op. With probes, the miners can at least have a fighting chance with the directional scan and local.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#2 - 2011-10-28 04:14:05 UTC
New players are given the Astrometrics skill, a probe launcher and a bunch of core scanner probes as part of the tutorials. There is no reason to move belts to anomalies, just go whole-hog into grav sites Big smile

Moving to grav sites for asteroids and ice will also open the opportunity for new pilots to contribute to advanced mining fleets: the new pilot scans down new grav sites, scans the asteroids and reports to the fleet where the juicier sites are located. No need to train up for months to fly a Hulk with T2 mining equipment.
Astor Daeoli
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2011-10-28 13:45:23 UTC
Severian Carnifex wrote:
- make belts so that you must scan them... i dont think botts can do scanning very well.
- static belts have only very small roids for new players... (strips dont have use if it)

- when you left scanned belt its gone... you must scan again...


I like the sound of that. It would also slow down 0.0 rat bots...i think?Big smile



Severian Carnifex wrote:
- make roid stealing criminal act so you can shoot that person - botts dont see what roid you mine...
- make fleeting with other players and making real ops more rewarding then solo mining (orca boost better) - botts dont fleet


I like the sound of that too. I have cc'ed your ideas to a similar post on assembly hall.
Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2011-10-28 15:43:05 UTC
Voddick wrote:

Low sec should have full access to the high end ores and ice currently found only in null sec.


Voddick wrote:

Low and null sec mining sites should require scan probes to find to reflect their difficulty and value.


What exactly is the value of a nullsec mining site if lowsec sites contain the same ores and ice?
Tenobia Aybara
Doomheim
#5 - 2011-10-28 17:31:03 UTC
I agree that all belts should be gravimetric sites BUT:

- The lowest quality of these sites should be anomalies. This is for new players so that they can mine in a single ship without the need for a probe launcher. These sites should only appear in Hi-Sec.

- Each system gains an ore-density statistic which governs the probability of sites forming. A combination of security and governing nation (for hi-sec) should decide what is in the fields. The size of field should be dependant solely on ore-density.

- Null-sec ores should be available in very limited quantity in low-sec, however they will be displaced away from planets and require decent scanning skills to narrow down.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#6 - 2011-10-28 21:14:32 UTC
Tenobia Aybara wrote:
The lowest quality of these sites should be anomalies. This is for new players so that they can mine in a single ship without the need for a probe launcher. These sites should only appear in Hi-Sec.


Why can't the new players probe down a site in their exploration ship, then mine it out in their mining ship?

Tenobia Aybara wrote:
Null-sec ores should be available in very limited quantity in low-sec, however they will be displaced away from planets and require decent scanning skills to narrow down.


Nullsec ores should be in null sec. I'd like to see ores more restricted by security status, such that Pyroxeres and Plagioclase were only available in 0.5 and 0.6 for example. Veldspar would be the only ore that is universally available, simply due to the vast quantities of Tritanium required for ship building (and because Veldspar is holy).

If ores are too widely available, they become worthless.
Tenobia Aybara
Doomheim
#7 - 2011-10-29 09:32:52 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:

Why can't the new players probe down a site in their exploration ship, then mine it out in their mining ship?


I just think the two ships thing is awkward for new players. Some more suitable alternatives to this could be allowing the 'mining frigates' to mount probe launchers alongside the 2 lasers, with a negative effect on probe capacity to prevent these ships becoming exploration vessels. OR just make veld sites anomalies. However I suppose making them all sig's would cut down on botting.

Mara Rinn wrote:

Nullsec ores should be in null sec. I'd like to see ores more restricted by security status, such that Pyroxeres and Plagioclase were only available in 0.5 and 0.6 for example. Veldspar would be the only ore that is universally available, simply due to the vast quantities of Tritanium required for ship building (and because Veldspar is holy).

If ores are too widely available, they become worthless.


Point taken.
Skyreth
Revelation of Wrath
#8 - 2011-10-29 11:33:59 UTC
Personally, don't see the need to change things from what they are.

Doing this would just mean people would need more characters or ships involved in mining operations.
I know I'm not the only person that gets bored with probing things down, with mining boring enough as is, this would just kill it.
Nick Bison
Serenity Engineering and Transport Company
Mordus Angels
#9 - 2011-10-29 17:34:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Nick Bison
A possible viable option may be:

1. leave 0.8 thru 1.0 as they are. Gives the newer players something to mine and those belts are fairly small anyway.
2. move all ore and ice belts +0.7 down to lowest null to GRAV sites.

Nothing clever at this time.

Adunh Slavy
#10 - 2011-10-29 19:08:07 UTC
How about system wide belts. You have to go to the star and there you run the on-board scanner, everyone has that and don't need skills to use it.

This way we get dynamic belts, we get system wide "ring" belts that people have wanted for years, AND we pull people to a common location where they can shoot each other.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Max Von Sydow
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2011-10-29 19:22:42 UTC
Supported if the mining ships could get a spare high for a probe launcher.
Anshio Tamark
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2011-11-03 15:44:54 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
New players are given the Astrometrics skill, a probe launcher and a bunch of core scanner probes as part of the tutorials. There is no reason to move belts to anomalies, just go whole-hog into grav sites Big smile

Moving to grav sites for asteroids and ice will also open the opportunity for new pilots to contribute to advanced mining fleets: the new pilot scans down new grav sites, scans the asteroids and reports to the fleet where the juicier sites are located. No need to train up for months to fly a Hulk with T2 mining equipment.

Or, alternately, a more skilled mining-gang can already be out in the site when the new player shows up, and offer to hire them (I've experienced this once, back when we hired our first out-siders).
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions
#13 - 2011-11-03 17:13:10 UTC
Voddick wrote:
Issue
Respawning belts just don’t make sense from a RP or anti-bot perspective. Remove them from the game and spawn random, small ice and ore Gravimetric sites instead. Idea

pretty good but needs probing.

Voddick wrote:
Criteria
It is critical that these mining sites in empire be accessible from the system scanner and not probes to ensure mining remains ‘new-player’ friendly. These sites should be small enough to last 30 minutes or so (40,000 m3) in a hulk before running out of ore. Also, a site despawn time of 3 to 4 hours should be set to ensure that fresh sites are always available.

Actually to fight botting you'd want these sites to only be probe-able. There are haven / sanctum bots that can use the system scanner. If you are worried about new players there are two things you could do.

1. making a probing tutorial mission that comes before the mining tutorial mission. Hell you could use that bigass TV in the captains quarters to play that one youtube tutorial video.

2. Leave belts there but only fill them with veldspar and scordite.

Voddick wrote:
Low Sec
Low sec should have full access to the high end ores and ice currently found only in null sec. They should also offer increasing quantities of ore to facilitate large, group mining ops. Everyone knows that no one bothers mining in low sec because the ore value is trivial. Low sec is every bit, if not more dangerous than null sec. The rewards should reflect this.

I would give them one or two rare ores that do not appear in highsec but not ALL rare ores that show up in null. People fight for sov out there for a reason.

Also in lowsec being in a probed site is actually a safety feature. When hostiles warp in they have to actually probe out the grav sites instead of just shotgunning the belts or running a quick system scan and heading to grav sites.

Voddick wrote:
Null Sec
Low and null sec mining sites should require scan probes to find to reflect their difficulty and value. Without this mechanic low sec roams would consist of jumping into a system, hitting scan and then warping in on a “helpless” mining op. With probes, the miners can at least have a fighting chance with the directional scan and local.

People already mine in grav sites out in null. All getting rid of belts would do out here is maybe stop some botters. Although I doubt that anyone would want to bot mine belts out in null. I'd be tempted to leave belts in nullsec.

I honestly think PoCo based sov is a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#14 - 2011-11-03 23:15:34 UTC
Wolodymyr wrote:
Voddick wrote:
Issue
Respawning belts just don’t make sense from a RP or anti-bot perspective. Remove them from the game and spawn random, small ice and ore Gravimetric sites instead. Idea

pretty good but needs probing.


Rookies are given the Astrometrics skill book for free, along with a core probe launcher and a bunch of core probes. Probing is no more an obstacle than shooting enemies with non-civilian weapons.

Wolodymyr wrote:
1. making a probing tutorial mission that comes before the mining tutorial mission. Hell you could use that bigass TV in the captains quarters to play that one youtube tutorial video.

2. Leave belts there but only fill them with veldspar and scordite.


Using the CQ screen to play tutorial videos sounds like an awesome idea! I also like the idea of leaving Veldspar in belts (but only Veld, since it is the holy ore).

Wolodymyr wrote:
Also in lowsec being in a probed site is actually a safety feature. When hostiles warp in they have to actually probe out the grav sites instead of just shotgunning the belts or running a quick system scan and heading to grav sites.


Leaving the veldspar belts means that roaming gangs have celestial targets to hang out at while waiting for "good fights".

Wolodymyr wrote:
People already mine in grav sites out in null. All getting rid of belts would do out here is maybe stop some botters. Although I doubt that anyone would want to bot mine belts out in null. I'd be tempted to leave belts in nullsec.


No mining bots in null Lol
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Noctis
#15 - 2011-11-03 23:47:50 UTC
Severian Carnifex wrote:
- when you left scanned belt its gone... you must scan again...


Bookmarks would negate that. That, or you just put two miners in a belt and make sure only one leaves at a time.



Severian Carnifex wrote:
- make roid stealing criminal act so you can shoot that person - botts dont see what roid you mine...


That's just laughable. "I claim this rock in the name of ME!" "But I claimed it first!" "Nuh uh!"

Seriously, people. Think this stuff through before you actually click post.

Severian Carnifex wrote:
- make fleeting with other players and making real ops more rewarding then solo mining (orca boost better) - botts dont fleet


Bots can fleet, they just don't because they don't need to. It would be simple to manually put a bot in a fleet, or to automate it joining to an advertised fleet.

Using an orca is plenty rewarding right now. When I did mining as part of my exploration, I ran two hulks and an orca when I could have run three hulks. Why? Because it was a lot easier and more productive than three solo hulks.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

Cyprus Black
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2011-11-03 23:48:12 UTC
It's a smart idea and it makes sense.

However that's not the issue. The issue is hundreds of thousands of bookmarks created as a result. Back in the day we didn't have a Warp To Zero on gates option which led to the result of hundreds of thousands of bookmarks created. It created a heavy strain on the server.

With ice and asteroid belts having to be scannable instead of seeing it on the overview, the same problem arises.

Summary of EvEs last four expansions: http://imgur.com/ZL5SM33

FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Noctis
#17 - 2011-11-04 01:36:30 UTC
Cyprus Black wrote:
It's a smart idea and it makes sense.

However that's not the issue. The issue is hundreds of thousands of bookmarks created as a result. Back in the day we didn't have a Warp To Zero on gates option which led to the result of hundreds of thousands of bookmarks created. It created a heavy strain on the server.

With ice and asteroid belts having to be scannable instead of seeing it on the overview, the same problem arises.


From what I understand, most miners (bots and otherwise) use bookmarks anyway.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions
#18 - 2011-11-04 20:30:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Wolodymyr
Can a bot do the little probing mini game? That might fix it.

Also I thought of one more thing, to prevent bookmark botting the new belt replacement grav sites would have to only have a few minerals and respawn somewhere else on depletion. Maybe at the rate of 2-3 hours of average highsec belt mining. That way the bookmark would only be worth while for a small amount of time. I have seen the medium and small grav sites out in null last for a day or more.

I honestly think PoCo based sov is a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544

Vitoc Slave
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2011-12-22 05:42:57 UTC
+1
Laechyd Eldgorn
0.0 POWERBLOCK
Paisti Syndicate
#20 - 2011-12-22 11:38:10 UTC
They were going to do this couple of years ago or at least thinking about it but miners went RAGEMODE for no reason. By some imaginary maths some ppl thought it would not be good idea to make botting more difficult and mining more rewarding and less repetitive.



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