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The great Cearain and X Gal 'How to fix/break FW thread.
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kraiklyn Asatru
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-05-15 23:22:08 UTC
Just figured it would be easy if it had a thread of it own instead of continueing in every new FW related thread.


@Devs this is not to troll, I just think it would really be best if it had a topic of its own.

Subjects include but are not limited to:

-The timer rolback.
-Plex warning system
-How to measure PvP performance.
Combatevolved
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-05-15 23:26:07 UTC
Make Caldari plex faster. Will fix everything.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#3 - 2013-05-15 23:37:31 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
-The timer rolback. Everybody agrees this is a great idea. There is no debate on this.
-Plex warning system. *SIGH*
-How to measure PvP performance. However you want.

The fundamental argument is that Cearain thinks FW occupancy warfare is utterly broken and I think it is flawed but workable.

His evidence is that farming alts in backwater systems (which are a majority of the systems) are able to outplex pvpers.

My evidence is massive numbers of kills racked up while fighting for occupancy - mainly by attacking systems that are actually populated by FW players.

/thread for me. o/
Combatevolved
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-05-16 00:28:09 UTC
One thing I don't like about rollback timers is we are able to run the timers almost capped so the farmers have to sit there that much more longer.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#5 - 2013-05-16 01:04:57 UTC
I wouldn't say rollback is universally favored. I don't favor it at least. But yes, some tweaks need to be made to the mechanics. For one, they need to reduce the lp payouts slightly or something to tamp down the farmers. Send the bastards to some other part of the game to gather their isk for rmt or whatever.

Also, since it hasn't been mentioned yet in this subforum, the Caldari farmer hordes are returning and the Minmatar farming hordes are returning home, it seems. So if Cerain is worrying about the Calamari Axis, it appears to be fine. Maybe that will get rid of his notification pleadings.

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#6 - 2013-05-16 03:03:36 UTC
Thanks for this thread. But the issue of whether fw sov inolves enough pvp (and what should be done) is something that will continue to come up and its not just me and XG. This topic will continue to come up as long as the top daily vp gainers killboards look like they do.

Couple of points:

My issue is not necessarilly "farmers." Its more accurately "rabbits." Rabbits are players who hide and plex and constantly run from pvp. Most farmers are rabbits but not all rabbits are farmers. Before we had lp for plexing we had rabbits and being a rabbit was the most efficient way to plex. It still is. Lots of defensive plexers are rabbits. They might not make much lp (so I wouldn't call them "farmers") but they win sov by running from pvp.

I really don't care if people want to make isk through pve. I have never had a big hang up with fw missions and in fact think they are a good form of low sec missions. But I don't think fw sov should be won by pve. The sov game should be pvp. I do think militias need better intel tools so they can be sure they have the opportunity to fight for every plex.

Combatevolved wrote:
One thing I don't like about rollback timers is we are able to run the timers almost capped so the farmers have to sit there that much more longer.


I agree that this should ideally be a valid tactic. I would also not want my timer to go down if I leave it to fight someone in a plex right next to mine. That is why I think ccp should consider different forms of timer rollbacks. Perhaps the timer will only roll back if someone not in your militia is on grid with you or your accell gate. Otherwise it stays. There are many variations on the theme that can be tweaked.

Deacon Abox wrote:

Also, since it hasn't been mentioned yet in this subforum, the Caldari farmer hordes are returning and the Minmatar farming hordes are returning home, it seems. So if Cerain is worrying about the Calamari Axis, it appears to be fine. Maybe that will get rid of his notification pleadings.


My problem with fw sov is that it is a carebear race. My problem is not that one faction or another is winning the carebear race. Better intel tools are necessary and (when combined with a form of rollback) sufficient to end the carebear race and make sov warfare a pvp game.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
Khimi Harar
#7 - 2013-05-16 06:39:45 UTC
There should be room for multiple playstyles in FW. That also means farmers, risk averse PvPers etc. EVE is not *play this way or don't play*

However, the balance is currently in favor of those who avoid all risk and just farm, since there is (with the current numbers of players) no way to counter them. A timer tickback would solve this problem, but still allow farmers to do their thing.

As for PvP influencing capture, this is (and should not be) a direct goal of FW. The most important goal is that the system *encourages* fun PvP. That it does.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-05-16 12:59:16 UTC
I think bridging the gap between the play styles and how it effects the war zone is the problem that needs to be addressed.

PvPsers pvp
Farmers farm
missioners mission

only one of those flip systems and effects the other two, nothing the other two do will ever effect the one.

Why not get paid a little more for pvping and have it effect the system you do it in, why not make missions more challenging than finding the agents in systems you can dock in etc and so on.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
1st-Garrentious WispBender
Doomheim
#9 - 2013-05-16 13:11:40 UTC
Remove Caldari, it is the only way to save FW.
JAF Anders
Adenosine Inhibition
#10 - 2013-05-16 14:31:46 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:

PvPsers pvp
Farmers farm
missioners mission

only one of those flip systems and effects the other two, nothing the other two do will ever effect the one.


Cockbag thrashers do a pretty good job at blapping farmers when they jump into system. I'd say that affects systems not getting flipped (because they don't get plexed, because the plexers can't get to the plexes).

The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-05-16 14:41:40 UTC
JAF Anders wrote:
Muad 'dib wrote:

PvPsers pvp
Farmers farm
missioners mission

only one of those flip systems and effects the other two, nothing the other two do will ever effect the one.


Cockbag thrashers do a pretty good job at blapping farmers when they jump into system. I'd say that affects systems not getting flipped (because they don't get plexed, because the plexers can't get to the plexes).



very true, but you have to sleep - they do not.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
JAF Anders
Adenosine Inhibition
#12 - 2013-05-16 14:51:55 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:



very true, but you have to sleep - they do not.


...

That's a good point.

The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#13 - 2013-05-16 15:08:58 UTC
Merdaneth wrote:
There should be room for multiple playstyles in FW. That also means farmers, risk averse PvPers etc. EVE is not *play this way or don't play*


I tend to agree with allot of what you say. I think the risk adverse already have lots of activities in eve. FW missions and all sorts of pve other activities are offered. Gate camping, high sec wardecs, and null sec blob pvp are great options for risk adverse pvpers.

Merdaneth wrote:

However, the balance is currently in favor of those who avoid all risk and just farm, since there is (with the current numbers of players) no way to counter them. A timer tickback would solve this problem, but still allow farmers to do their thing.

As for PvP influencing capture, this is (and should not be) a direct goal of FW. The most important goal is that the system *encourages* fun PvP. That it does.


I agree with that end goal. I think it should accomplish that goal much better.

I think the best way to make fw sov more fun is by making pvp have a larger influence on sov. IMO winning plexes/systems by pvp is much more fun than winning sov by having alts rabbit plex.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#14 - 2013-05-16 17:55:55 UTC
FW is fine, it does not need any fixes
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#15 - 2013-05-16 18:52:32 UTC
Just throwing in the 'Mission rats should not shoot their own militia'. Unless this makes the missions exploitable, idk. But even then there are ways to fix it.


Also, if you have some intel about some stabbed & cloaked farmers of your militia, that is gal or minmatar, please let me know, i'd love to try something :)
Feffri
Dead's Prostitutes
The Initiative.
#16 - 2013-05-16 20:45:54 UTC
yes on roll back timers here.. also I would like to see each plex rat a little stronger as far as tank to stop t1 frigs with stabs and no dps from killing them. e.g a incursus with two stabs should not have enough dps to kill a rat in a small let a lont the cruiser in the medium. I'd like to see.

novice rat dps tank @ 100ish dps
small rat dps tank @ 200ish dps
and medium rat tank dps at 300 ish dps.

something along that line open for discussion would like to hear others thoughts on this. I feel that would stop people in stabs because they would not have the dps to break the rats tank solo at least while roll back would hurt cloaky plexers.

I would also like there to be more penalty for leaving a plex. If you are first into a plex you have a major advantage as far as range dictation and being set up. I think if you are forced to leave there should be a bigger penalty. I would like to see that any time gain on the timer from neutral status not only roll back if no one is there but double time back to neutral if defenders stay. As far as plexers that warp out constantly you can easily roll their timer back chase to next timer and roll it back so it is possible to defend against farmer. As far as actual sov warfare it means if you bring a fleet 9which has huge advantage if first in) and you are chased out or run out it hurts that much more.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#17 - 2013-05-16 21:06:01 UTC
Feffri wrote:
yes on roll back timers here.. also I would like to see each plex rat a little stronger as far as tank to stop t1 frigs with stabs and no dps from killing them. e.g a incursus with two stabs should not have enough dps to kill a rat in a small let a lont the cruiser in the medium. I'd like to see.

novice rat dps tank @ 100ish dps
small rat dps tank @ 200ish dps
and medium rat tank dps at 300 ish dps.

something along that line open for discussion would like to hear others thoughts on this. I feel that would stop people in stabs because they would not have the dps to break the rats tank solo at least while roll back would hurt cloaky plexers.

I would also like there to be more penalty for leaving a plex. If you are first into a plex you have a major advantage as far as range dictation and being set up. I think if you are forced to leave there should be a bigger penalty. I would like to see that any time gain on the timer from neutral status not only roll back if no one is there but double time back to neutral if defenders stay. As far as plexers that warp out constantly you can easily roll their timer back chase to next timer and roll it back so it is possible to defend against farmer. As far as actual sov warfare it means if you bring a fleet 9which has huge advantage if first in) and you are chased out or run out it hurts that much more.


you sure know that taking 100+ dps out of frigate is not newbie friendly thing, some frigates may do it with low skills but not many.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#18 - 2013-05-16 21:34:47 UTC
Stabs aren't the problem. And messing around with rats will not help faction war sov. Having the computer ai win the war is not the way to go. Give players the tools they need so they can win the war.

The only reason someone in a stabbed ship will stick around is to let you know chasing them is pointless. But on all plexes you can easilly move 40k away from the warp in and also see people coming on dscan before they even land on grid with the accell gate.

Stabs don't reduce damage other than by taking up slots. 2 stabs are all you really need and several ships have 4 low slots. Forcing every ship to fill their lows with damage mods in order to kill rats is not a good idea.

Bottom line is even when we had multiple waves of rats with crazy ewar and dps rabbit plexing was alive and well. If anything reducing the strength of rats has promoted pvp.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Feffri
Dead's Prostitutes
The Initiative.
#19 - 2013-05-16 22:23:12 UTC
wrote:


you sure know that taking 100+ dps out of frigate is not newbie friendly thing, some frigates may do it with low skills but not many.


Thats the idea :) a 10 day old alt that can make hundreds of millions of isk a day that can't be countered is ridiculous. Also the fact that it can run novice to medium with 2 stabs in the lows is dumb. They should at least have to fit a pvp ship.

Just my suggestion to hold back the farming hordes.. however I don't really care because like everyone i have alts and will just keep printing isk until they do something. :)
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#20 - 2013-05-17 08:15:09 UTC
Feffri wrote:
wrote:


you sure know that taking 100+ dps out of frigate is not newbie friendly thing, some frigates may do it with low skills but not many.


Thats the idea :) a 10 day old alt that can make hundreds of millions of isk a day that can't be countered is ridiculous. Also the fact that it can run novice to medium with 2 stabs in the lows is dumb. They should at least have to fit a pvp ship.

Just my suggestion to hold back the farming hordes.. however I don't really care because like everyone i have alts and will just keep printing isk until they do something. :)


so you want that fw would be place where only veterans could do something?
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