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Odyssey and the New Scanning System
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Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#41 - 2013-05-15 13:31:32 UTC
Gil Roland wrote:
Scanning is fun because is HARD


I agree with this, however, placing probes is more annoying and repetitive than outright hard. The proposed changes take away an annoying and repetitive step. Once you know how to place probes in the correct way, it just becomes annoying to have to re-do it.

The hard/fun part for me is zero-ing in on a target before they move. Hiding the probes at the right time, etc.

Personally I would like to see a system where you can save your own deployment configurations rather than the default that is proposed.

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
YuuKnow
The Scope
#42 - 2013-05-15 17:35:02 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
YuuKnow wrote:


Nah, scanning is probably one of the least complex in terms of player skill involved of any other activity of Eve. Just takes one youtube and you've got it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8n8KamI0Ag.

That is all.

Its nice to have personal styles and to have opprotunities to improve technique however. I'm in favor of being able to save formation for customized scan techniques.

yk


Yet they are not changing how scanning works overall, they are only making it easier. Pretty much removing what little skill is needed. Makes it pretty pointless at this point. People talk about things being repetitive, without realizing that Eve as a whole is repetitive by design.


If you call having to hit F3 8 times and then drag the probes to the formation you want for each system 'skill' then your sense of challenge is strange. Better would be to hit 'launchprobe formation' and then use your skill in interpreting what you see.

yk
Haulie Berry
#43 - 2013-05-15 17:37:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Gil Roland wrote:


Scanning is fun because is HARD.



Save me some time, here.

Do all of the conclusions follow from this faulty premise? Because I don't remember the last time I felt remotely challenged by the scanning system.
Gil Roland
Roma Aeterna
#44 - 2013-05-15 18:58:05 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Gil Roland wrote:


Scanning is fun because is HARD.



Save me some time, here.

Do all of the conclusions follow from this faulty premise? Because I don't remember the last time I felt remotely challenged by the scanning system.


When posting in a 3 pages thread, you shouldn't jump to the last page and rush a reply. Other people before your time-saving response, have explained what "hard" means in this context. Proper formation of probes in space can (will) save you time in resolving the signature. The way you do it is something personal, is something you learn with time, patience and dedication, is something you're proud of, is something that can make the difference especially if you are hunting someone, is something hard that you don't learn the first day you lunch your probes.

We can go on forever, at this point is clear that there are (at least) two different point of views between players on this matter. There is a way to fix this and make all happy: the DEVs could just leave the choice to the player. They could implement the new scanning system, and leave the option to do things the old way. Kind of "manual" probes control system and "automated" probes control system. Like with autopilot.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2013-05-15 19:11:42 UTC
Gil Roland wrote:

Scanning is fun because is HARD..


uh, nope. stopped reading here. scanning is fun because u get to look for your target and interact with it. id rather be spending more time interacting.
Gil Roland
Roma Aeterna
#46 - 2013-05-15 19:36:18 UTC
Gil Roland wrote:

We can go on forever, at this point is clear that there are (at least) two different point of views between players on this matter. There is a way to fix this and make all happy: the DEVs could just leave the choice to the player. They could implement the new scanning system, and leave the option to do things the old way. Kind of "manual" probes control system and "automated" probes control system. Like with autopilot.


Of course, if DEVs go down this path, the automated probes pattern shouldn't be optimized for the best/fast possible resolution on the target. The player doing it in manual mode should always have an advantage on the player who is using the automated process. Like with autopilot: you can use it if you want, but it's not gonna warp you at zero on the gate.
Haulie Berry
#47 - 2013-05-15 19:50:11 UTC
Gil Roland wrote:


When posting in a 3 pages thread, you shouldn't jump to the last page and rush a reply. Other people before your time-saving response, have explained what "hard" means in this context. Proper formation of probes in space can (will) save you time in resolving the signature. The way you do it is something personal, is something you learn with time, patience and dedication, is something you're proud of, is something that can make the difference especially if you are hunting someone, is something hard that you don't learn the first day you lunch your probes.



Nothing you just described fits any commonly accepted definition of the word "hard", regardless of context, so I'm just going to assume that the answer to my question is, "Yes."
Sishen Gzi
Hellion Support Services
#48 - 2013-05-15 20:09:24 UTC
I would suggest that anyone concerned about the new probing mechanics go on the test server and try them. If you go on during Icelandic business hours and participate in the discussion on the singularity channel there are actually developers on there who sometimes respond. Removing tedium does not make it easy, I like being able to deploy all my probes at once, I miss the 8th probe as well as the ability to move them independently, and I would like customizable formations.
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
#49 - 2013-05-15 20:09:26 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
YuuKnow wrote:
Gil Roland wrote:
Ciao,

I think every explorer (+ every DEV involved in Odyssey scanning mechanics) in EVE should read this blog post from Tiger Ears:
http://www.tigerears.org/2013/05/12/one-handed-scanning-comes-with-odyssey/

Scanning is fun because is HARD. Hunting someone in a WH/Space Anomaly/Whatever place require using combat probes is fun because is HARD. Searching for a WH, pinpointing an anomaly is fun because is HARD... Please don't fix what is not broken, don't make too easy what should stay HARD.


Nah, there's nothing hard about scanning if you know how to do it right. Pretty straightforward. Its only hard for someone that's trying to do it without proper skillz or that doesn't know what they are doing.

Having automated formation, just saves a lot of mindless repetition. They do need to make the formations customizable and save-able however.

yk


Brain surgery isn't hard, if you know what you are doing. The fact that you need to learn how to do something properly entails difficulty. Learning how to set up probes in a efficient and timely fashion, signifies "skill". By allowing preset formations may remove some tedium from scanning but it also removes the learning(or skill) factor of setting everything up. The only repetitive action the old scanning system had that was bad was having to launch X amount of probes individually. This could have been resolved by allowing the user to set a number of probes to be launched. Instead they removed any challenge of scanning by having 2 predefined formations, that is optimized for the best results. Aka dumbing down scanning.


Rocket Science isn't hard, if you know what you are doing. The fact that you need to learn how to do something properly entails difficulty. Learning how to quickly warp to a safe, launch the exact amount of probes you need (4, 5, 6, 7, or 8), move them away from you, and cloak up signifies "skill." Allowing someone to launch all probes at once may remove some tedium from scanning but it also removes the learning (or skill) factor of setting everything up. The only repetitive action the old scanning system had that was bad was having to switch between DSP and normal probes manually. This could have been resolved by removing the DSP and adding it's functionality to the onboard scanner, and just letting you keep your preferred probes in the launcher. Instead they removed any challenge by letting you launch 7 probes at once, optimized for best results. Aka dumbing down scanning.

I am not an alt of Chribba.
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
#50 - 2013-05-15 20:14:22 UTC
Gil Roland wrote:
Proper formation of probes in space can (will) save you time in resolving the signature. The way you do it is something personal, is something you learn with time, patience and dedication, is something you're proud of, is something that can make the difference especially if you are hunting someone, is something hard that you don't learn the first day you lunch your probes.

We can go on forever, at this point is clear that there are (at least) two different point of views between players on this matter. There is a way to fix this and make all happy: the DEVs could just leave the choice to the player. They could implement the new scanning system, and leave the option to do things the old way. Kind of "manual" probes control system and "automated" probes control system. Like with autopilot.


So it took you a fair amount of time, patience and dedication to . . . . decide that a cross was the best way to organize your probes for scanning down a signature? You developed this method on your own (or just watched one of a kajillion YouTube videos) and now it is "something you're proud of?"

And you're saying that your standard probe formation is "something hard that you don't learn on the first day you launch your probes?" I don't know how you derped so hard right out of the gate, but I had no real need to spend time, patience and dedication picking a formation for my probes.

You ever wonder if maybe you've just really been over thinking scanning?

I am not an alt of Chribba.
Grog Barrel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2013-05-15 20:21:22 UTC
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
YuuKnow wrote:
Gil Roland wrote:
Ciao,

I think every explorer (+ every DEV involved in Odyssey scanning mechanics) in EVE should read this blog post from Tiger Ears:
http://www.tigerears.org/2013/05/12/one-handed-scanning-comes-with-odyssey/

Scanning is fun because is HARD. Hunting someone in a WH/Space Anomaly/Whatever place require using combat probes is fun because is HARD. Searching for a WH, pinpointing an anomaly is fun because is HARD... Please don't fix what is not broken, don't make too easy what should stay HARD.


Nah, there's nothing hard about scanning if you know how to do it right. Pretty straightforward. Its only hard for someone that's trying to do it without proper skillz or that doesn't know what they are doing.

Having automated formation, just saves a lot of mindless repetition. They do need to make the formations customizable and save-able however.

yk


Brain surgery isn't hard, if you know what you are doing. The fact that you need to learn how to do something properly entails difficulty. Learning how to set up probes in a efficient and timely fashion, signifies "skill". By allowing preset formations may remove some tedium from scanning but it also removes the learning(or skill) factor of setting everything up. The only repetitive action the old scanning system had that was bad was having to launch X amount of probes individually. This could have been resolved by allowing the user to set a number of probes to be launched. Instead they removed any challenge of scanning by having 2 predefined formations, that is optimized for the best results. Aka dumbing down scanning.


Rocket Science isn't hard, if you know what you are doing. The fact that you need to learn how to do something properly entails difficulty. Learning how to quickly warp to a safe, launch the exact amount of probes you need (4, 5, 6, 7, or 8), move them away from you, and cloak up signifies "skill." Allowing someone to launch all probes at once may remove some tedium from scanning but it also removes the learning (or skill) factor of setting everything up. The only repetitive action the old scanning system had that was bad was having to switch between DSP and normal probes manually. This could have been resolved by removing the DSP and adding it's functionality to the onboard scanner, and just letting you keep your preferred probes in the launcher. Instead they removed any challenge by letting you launch 7 probes at once, optimized for best results. Aka dumbing down scanning.


Astrophysics isn't hard, if you know what you are doing. The fact that you need to learn how to do something properly entails difficulty. Learning how to quickly warp to a safe, launch the exact amount of probes you need (4, 5, 6, 7, or 8), move them away from you, and cloak up signifies "skill." Allowing someone to launch all probes at once may remove some tedium from scanning but it also removes the learning (or skill) factor of setting everything up. The only repetitive action the old scanning system had that was bad was having to switch between DSP and normal probes manually. This could have been resolved by removing the DSP and adding it's functionality to the onboard scanner, and just letting you keep your preferred probes in the launcher. Instead they removed any challenge by letting you launch 7 probes at once, optimized for best results. Aka dumbing down scanning.
Plyn
Uncharted.
#52 - 2013-05-15 20:30:05 UTC
Sounds like a good change to me. The only place where your "skill" with probing really makes a damn bit of difference is scanning down other players. Making it (ever so slightly)faster to scan other players is going to equate to more scan attempts resulting in PvP, which is only a good thing.
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
#53 - 2013-05-15 20:32:44 UTC
Grog Barrel wrote:
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
YuuKnow wrote:
Gil Roland wrote:
Ciao,

I think every explorer (+ every DEV involved in Odyssey scanning mechanics) in EVE should read this blog post from Tiger Ears:
http://www.tigerears.org/2013/05/12/one-handed-scanning-comes-with-odyssey/

Scanning is fun because is HARD. Hunting someone in a WH/Space Anomaly/Whatever place require using combat probes is fun because is HARD. Searching for a WH, pinpointing an anomaly is fun because is HARD... Please don't fix what is not broken, don't make too easy what should stay HARD.


Nah, there's nothing hard about scanning if you know how to do it right. Pretty straightforward. Its only hard for someone that's trying to do it without proper skillz or that doesn't know what they are doing.

Having automated formation, just saves a lot of mindless repetition. They do need to make the formations customizable and save-able however.

yk


Brain surgery isn't hard, if you know what you are doing. The fact that you need to learn how to do something properly entails difficulty. Learning how to set up probes in a efficient and timely fashion, signifies "skill". By allowing preset formations may remove some tedium from scanning but it also removes the learning(or skill) factor of setting everything up. The only repetitive action the old scanning system had that was bad was having to launch X amount of probes individually. This could have been resolved by allowing the user to set a number of probes to be launched. Instead they removed any challenge of scanning by having 2 predefined formations, that is optimized for the best results. Aka dumbing down scanning.


Rocket Science isn't hard, if you know what you are doing. The fact that you need to learn how to do something properly entails difficulty. Learning how to quickly warp to a safe, launch the exact amount of probes you need (4, 5, 6, 7, or 8), move them away from you, and cloak up signifies "skill." Allowing someone to launch all probes at once may remove some tedium from scanning but it also removes the learning (or skill) factor of setting everything up. The only repetitive action the old scanning system had that was bad was having to switch between DSP and normal probes manually. This could have been resolved by removing the DSP and adding it's functionality to the onboard scanner, and just letting you keep your preferred probes in the launcher. Instead they removed any challenge by letting you launch 7 probes at once, optimized for best results. Aka dumbing down scanning.


Astrophysics isn't hard, if you know what you are doing. The fact that you need to learn how to do something properly entails difficulty. Learning how to quickly warp to a safe, launch the exact amount of probes you need (4, 5, 6, 7, or 8), move them away from you, and cloak up signifies "skill." Allowing someone to launch all probes at once may remove some tedium from scanning but it also removes the learning (or skill) factor of setting everything up. The only repetitive action the old scanning system had that was bad was having to switch between DSP and normal probes manually. This could have been resolved by removing the DSP and adding it's functionality to the onboard scanner, and just letting you keep your preferred probes in the launcher. Instead they removed any challenge by letting you launch 7 probes at once, optimized for best results. Aka dumbing down scanning.


You did it wrong.

I am not an alt of Chribba.
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2013-05-15 21:11:43 UTC
Octoven wrote:
Not another anti-odyssey thread >.> I am glad they are fixing and addressing some of the concerns with the new probing system, but it does have the potential to be more efficient then the current one. It never really made sense to hold shift, move probe ranges, hold alt, adjust probes toward the center. Now you can do both those functions and dont even need to press shift/alt which to me does NOT take from the difficulty of it, just makes it a more streamlined and efficient design.

I will admit though, I think the base signals can be dialed down some. With DSPs being removed, it really isn't necessary to adjust to little deviation as possible before skills come into play.

As for the hacking mini-game. I love it, going to radar and mag sites is really a two step process. Unless you have a T3, you are condemned to scan down a site with a buzzard or something, bookmark the structure, go back and dock, grab your combat ship (that you have to drag with you), fly out and shoot ****, re-dock and grab your buzzard again, fly back out, and sit with a module turned on doing nothing but waiting for a chance of success for you to open the can, loot, and fly away. That doesn't really seem like exploring, its more like a simplistic mission.

However, the mini-game gives you an interactive interface that provides more of an exploratory feel to it. Each node you click you don't know if its a defense system or a utility slot. Either way, I prefer something that I can do to just sitting there and running a module over and over until a can unlocks.

The even nicer part about the probing interface is hiding all the probes that arent at the center. If I am using a pinpoint formation and only need to adjust one probe to move them all...why do I need to even see the others? However, you can over-ride this and show them by pressing shift.


Umm, you do things different to some people, you don´t have to touch the KB at all at present to explore, you can do it all using just the mouse pointer, many people work that way, just like some like to move probes individually to where they desire as they know that out of two points for a sig one will be correct and confirmable at a smaller radius speeding things up.

The hacking game is a tablet affair or something for WiS, its not in space EvE, this and the overlay brackets and radial menus confirm that CCP is now trying not to be firmly in a unique niche but trying to keep up with the big boys in the pit with shiny, shiny lowest common demoniator drivel with no depth, they forgetting that the EvE niche has a long term place in the market that no one else fills in the same way, it is a shame what greed and arrogance can do.

Hiding all the probes may be good, but it may as well have been one super probe, as that what you are movingwhen all is said and done, where is the skill and game play?, its gone, poof, it is no more, its a dead parrot.

yeah niche, skill, gameplay, all things that are missing with Ody expansion, shame they cannot see it, but were hooked we´ll adapt, after shooting staues, because the overlay spam was not thought out as sigs are all on the same plane 90%+ of the time and the overlaps will be its killer.

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2013-05-15 21:20:15 UTC
Gil Roland wrote:
Gil Roland wrote:

We can go on forever, at this point is clear that there are (at least) two different point of views between players on this matter. There is a way to fix this and make all happy: the DEVs could just leave the choice to the player. They could implement the new scanning system, and leave the option to do things the old way. Kind of "manual" probes control system and "automated" probes control system. Like with autopilot.


Of course, if DEVs go down this path, the automated probes pattern shouldn't be optimized for the best/fast possible resolution on the target. The player doing it in manual mode should always have an advantage on the player who is using the automated process. Like with autopilot: you can use it if you want, but it's not gonna warp you at zero on the gate.


i´d agree CCP will keep the Super Probe (because that what it is when all is said and done) a.k.a. "Formations" because its lowest common denominator and usable with an IQ of 30, yeah you could train a chimp to do it. However it is basically an automated system without real human intervention with all the skill and built up knowledge that goes in to it, so like auto pilot there should be a penalty

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#56 - 2013-05-15 22:31:00 UTC
Meh. As someone who has lived in a wormhole for a few months and regularly used combat probes in lowsec, I find this change to be a good thing. Not just because Eve causes enough RSI as it is. Probes have a lifetime of an hour and in this time you can switch ships at will. The change will only remove several minutes for a noob, several seconds for a pro, of their effective probing time. Oh, and it might minimize the amounts of times he screws up by accidentally ruining the formation. Not that big a deal gameplay wise, very big deal for my wrist and fingers.
Smokay
Yo Mr. White
#57 - 2013-05-15 22:36:44 UTC
Brujo Loco wrote:
The only things that annoys me is the "loot" blowing up all over the place thing and the stupid clickfest, if I wanted to play something like that I can do it for free in the 20.000+ Java games targeted for mothers at home, with much shinier colors and better sounds. So NO ty ...



Newsflash.

This entire game is a clickfest.
Gil Roland
Roma Aeterna
#58 - 2013-05-16 01:24:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Gil Roland
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:


You ever wonder if maybe you've just really been over thinking scanning?


LOL. This is a RPG, I (as a player) could be right thinking I'm speeding up the process of resolving a target with my superskill power, or I could be wrong, that really doesn't change the fact that I feel that way, and the all system should be designed to make the player feel that way. Now I have a DEV that tell me: "Hey! What the hell are you doing? You can do the same thing just pushing a button on your screen, all your effort is for nothing!"... Well done dear DEV, why don't you give me a script that save me the tedium (am I learning your logic?) of pushing the button, so I can just seat back and watch how the game play itself?
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#59 - 2013-05-16 01:52:40 UTC
New scanning system in a nutshell.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
#60 - 2013-05-17 13:53:22 UTC
Gil Roland wrote:
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:


You ever wonder if maybe you've just really been over thinking scanning?


LOL. This is a RPG, I (as a player) could be right thinking I'm speeding up the process of resolving a target with my superskill power, or I could be wrong, that really doesn't change the fact that I feel that way, and the all system should be designed to make the player feel that way. Now I have a DEV that tell me: "Hey! What the hell are you doing? You can do the same thing just pushing a button on your screen, all your effort is for nothing!"... Well done dear DEV, why don't you give me a script that save me the tedium (am I learning your logic?) of pushing the button, so I can just seat back and watch how the game play itself?


And that's the one argument I can't really rebut; how it subjectively makes you feel.

But bigger picture, I think far more players (myself included) are pretty pleased with not having to do needlessly repetitive tasks like carefully boxing up our probes every time we launch them (I always do 8 probes in a cube, sounds like I'm about to lose that option), because that is a part of scanning that is not "fun" to me - just busywork.

But again, nobody can honestly say that you're "wrong" for wanting to feel better about your scanning (or rping as a scanner - i mean, we're all rpers in some respect, flying our internet spaceships and wishing it were real) by manually doing more tasks. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I am not an alt of Chribba.
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