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Skill reimbursement for new exploration skills?

Author
Sicyon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-05-15 10:34:22 UTC
In one of the dev blogs it says the current skills for exploration will be lowered from level 3 to level 1 (see below)

Astrometrics:
This is now a starting skill, all new characters receive this at Level 1
Added +5% scan strength, -5% max scan deviation and -0.5 sec scan time per level

Not sure if the other " support" skills for exploration will be affected as well.


I have not seen any reports of how the people that already trained Astrometrics to level V will be compensated, if at all.

Might I suggest that all current SP in Astrometrics and the "support" skills (Astrometrics Rangefinding etc.) will be set to 0 in the summer expansion and everyone recieves their SP invested in those skills as unallocated skillpoints.
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-05-15 10:38:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Elena Thiesant
Why do you want skill reimbursement?
The skill is still useful, it will still exist (with the same multiplier), it will still have benefit in that it boosts your scanning ability, increasing strength, reducing time and deviation.
Sicyon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-05-15 10:59:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Sicyon
Elena Thiesant wrote:
Why do you want skill reimbursement?
The skill is still useful, it will still exist (with the same multiplier), it will still have benefit in that it boosts your scanning ability, increasing strength, reducing time and deviation.


Because people who have trained it have invested 3x more SP in the skills. This training time loss should be compensated.

When the BC and BS changes hit all you see and hear was what you needed to do (skill training wise) before the summer patch. For the changes in the exploration skills no word about skill changes anywhere until the recent clarification in the dev blog.

People who started training in anticipation of the summer patch are actually going to lose a substantial amount of SP, just like me. I started training Astrometrics to level V on all my chars only to discover recently they not only changed the skill description but also the skill level (from 3 to 1). All who started to train Astrometrics in anticipation of the summer patch are basicly getting only 1/3 of their investment in return.

This should have been made clearer much earlier.
crazy0146
The Federation of assorted candy
#4 - 2013-05-15 11:08:19 UTC
Train Reading comprehension to at least level IV.

They are not changing the training time modifier the only thing they are changing is a brand new character will have Astrometrics already trained to level I.

So the training time modifier will still be 3x not 1x.
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-05-15 11:13:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Elena Thiesant
Sicyon wrote:
Elena Thiesant wrote:
Why do you want skill reimbursement?
The skill is still useful, it will still exist (with the same multiplier), it will still have benefit in that it boosts your scanning ability, increasing strength, reducing time and deviation.


Because people who have trained it have invested 3x more SP in the skills. This training time loss should be compensated. .


What training time loss?

New players get one level of the skill for free, that's maybe 10 minutes of training that they get that we had to do.

They're not changing the skill multiplier to 1, they're giving new characters 1 level of the skill automatically, that's all. The skill will still require exactly the same number of sp after the change as before, same training time.
Cutlass Claire
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-05-15 11:26:12 UTC
Actualy, OP does raise a point although he doesn't grasp the changes fully.

People who have trained all their Astrometrics support skills will see their effectiveness reduced. Currently Astrometrics will give you 1 more active probe. I know lots who haven't trained that to level V but did train Astrometrics support skills to level V. You don't need Astrometrics to lvl V, scanning with 5 probes works fine.

If I read the DEV blog correctly these Astrometrics support skills will be less effective (in most cases things like Astrometric Rangefinding and such the skill bonus will go from 10% per skill level to 5% per skill level).

To get to the current level of effectiveness they now need to train Astrometrics as well. Not exactly what the OP is implying but still something to look into.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#7 - 2013-05-15 12:38:36 UTC
if the numbers stay the way they are, any skill point you invested in any probing support skill is pretty much wasted. in the current SiSi build, you can scan down all but the weakest signatures with an unbonused ship, t1 scanner and t1 probes if you have trained astrometrics 3 and no support skills.
now add the new exploration modules, astrometrics 5, a bonused ship, sisters gear and a virtue set and you can probably scan any sig to 100% in under 20 seconds.

I should buy an Ishtar.

Cutlass Claire
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-05-15 13:14:10 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
if the numbers stay the way they are, any skill point you invested in any probing support skill is pretty much wasted. in the current SiSi build, you can scan down all but the weakest signatures with an unbonused ship, t1 scanner and t1 probes if you have trained astrometrics 3 and no support skills.
now add the new exploration modules, astrometrics 5, a bonused ship, sisters gear and a virtue set and you can probably scan any sig to 100% in under 20 seconds.


True, with the new summer patch there will be additional items for mid slots (not sure about the low slots) that will enhance scanning. People who have trained all there Astrometric support skills to level V will basicly be "overskilled" after the patch.

Those that have, better start sceaming FIRE now or CCP will not reimburse you anything Big smile
Nagnor
The Happy Shooters
#9 - 2013-05-15 14:28:43 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
if the numbers stay the way they are, any skill point you invested in any probing support skill is pretty much wasted. in the current SiSi build, you can scan down all but the weakest signatures with an unbonused ship, t1 scanner and t1 probes if you have trained astrometrics 3 and no support skills.
now add the new exploration modules, astrometrics 5, a bonused ship, sisters gear and a virtue set and you can probably scan any sig to 100% in under 20 seconds.


Don't think so. Maybe more sites can be scanned down faster, but not all sites to 100% in under 20 sec. Besides who says that everybody is going full monty on imps and gear. The high level of those skills might provide less additional value, but are clearly not worthless.

Don't hold your breath waiting for CCP to give in. Past actions on similar situations show that CCP don't do those reimbursments unless the requirements become completely conflicting. I experienced it myself with the Mining barge change. As a then new player investments in rigs costed me a significant portion of my ISK. With the barges changed to use Ore hold instead of regular cargo hold, the cargo rigs became a lot less effective and partically of no value(unless you want to store >50 mining crystals). Nevertheless CCP won't unrig them because they had still a little bit of use.
Marsan
#10 - 2013-05-15 16:32:44 UTC
The scaning skills are still useful in game. For example it means with all my skills trained up to level 4-5. I can be very effective in a standard ship rather always needing to switch out to my pimped up covert opsfor scanning. Also it's still pretty hard to scan down other ships and your scan skills are critical to combat scanning.

PS- The people who have the right to be outraged are the people with a lot of isk in sister core probes, and scanning rigs, but that's eve for you.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.

Baggo Hammers
#11 - 2013-05-15 16:59:29 UTC
Having a dedicated scan toon, I do find it lame that they have really made all the time spent training wasted. And it was. But I suspect I will live. I am just a bit leery of the direction CCP is taking in their business model.

If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there.

Haulie Berry
#12 - 2013-05-15 17:24:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Daniel Plain wrote:
in the current SiSi build, you can scan down all but the weakest signatures with an unbonused ship, t1 scanner and t1 probes if you have trained astrometrics 3 and no support skills.



While I agree (and have posted several times in the test feedback thread suggesting this) that sigs should be weakened or otherwise made harder (in terms of the game math) to scan down, characterizing this as a significant departure from the current situation on TQ is disingenuous. It requires a trivial amount of SPs and fitting compromises to scan down all but the hardest sigs now, and it still will after the patch.

You're also implicitly suggesting that the ability to do it at all is equivalent to the ability to do it quickly and efficiently, rendering any skill or bonus beyond the bare necessity to 100% a sig moot. This is intellectually dishonest. Being able to scan a sig down faster/in fewer attempts still provides additional value beyond simply being able to pinpoint it at all.

I agree with the general notion that sigs - PvE sigs in particular - are too easy to pinpoint now. I agree that this should be addressed in some way. I don't agree with this hyperbolic nonsense that it renders the support skills worthless, however, and no, nobody deserves a refund for this, just as they do not deserve a refund for any other gameplay change that alters the value of a skill.

Datacore farmers did not get a refund when they nerfed that. Titan pilots didn't get a refund when they changed DDs. SB pilots didn't get their cruise missile skills refunded when they changed to torps. Armageddon pilots aren't going to get their large energy SPs refunded.

Things change. You get a refund when they remove skills from the game wholesale (and, god, I bet they regret ever breaking the seal on refunds at all, by now), not for every gameplay change that inflicts a little butthurt.

It does not matter that you FEEL the skill is no longer of use. The fact is that it still does something in the game and can still be of benefit to you. Get over it.
Cutlass Claire
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2013-05-15 18:22:33 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
SB pilots didn't get their cruise missile skills refunded when they changed to torps.


Bad example IMO, cruise missiles are getting a realy huge buff coming summer patch Big smile
Haulie Berry
#14 - 2013-05-15 18:24:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Cutlass Claire wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
SB pilots didn't get their cruise missile skills refunded when they changed to torps.


Bad example IMO, cruise missiles are getting a realy huge buff coming summer patch Big smile


How does that pertain to a stealth bomber change from, what, 4? years ago, exactly?

And even if the cruise missile buff of 2013 had any relationship, at all, to the SB torpedo change of 2009, how would a "really huge buff" to cruise missiles compensate stealth bomber pilots who can no longer use cruise missiles on their stealth bombers?

I'm just going to assume that you're too new to actually know what was being referenced.
Sicyon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2013-05-15 18:46:24 UTC
I see the thread has derailed already.

Just out of curiousity, will the bonuses on the current exploring ships (like the probe) and their T2 counterparts change with the upcoming patch?
Haulie Berry
#16 - 2013-05-15 18:50:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Sicyon wrote:
I see the thread has derailed already.

Just out of curiousity, will the bonuses on the current exploring ships (like the probe) and their T2 counterparts change with the upcoming patch?


No, it was pretty much off the rails to begin with and, as the OP, that's mostly your fault.

They are not changing the rank of the astrometrics skill.

It's still going to be a rank 3 skill. Level is not rank. Level is how many points you have in the skill. Rank is the skill's training time multiplier.

New characters will start with Astrometrics, the rank 3 skill, at level 1, which you interpreted as a reduction of rank.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#17 - 2013-05-15 19:16:39 UTC
The scanning support skills are now high-rank skills with very little usefulness. I always thought they were kind of over-ranked previously at 10%/level, now at only 5%/level there's not really much point in sinking a ton of training time into them...
Sicyon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2013-05-15 20:50:34 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
The scanning support skills are now high-rank skills with very little usefulness. I always thought they were kind of over-ranked previously at 10%/level, now at only 5%/level there's not really much point in sinking a ton of training time into them...


Indeed. Just checked, Astrometric Rangefinding is a rank 8 skill and Astrometric Pinpointing and Acquisition are both rank 5 skills. Seeing their effectiveness will be halved and that having Astrometrics at level V is actualy enough it seems these skills are more or less obsolete.
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#19 - 2013-05-16 08:54:43 UTC
Sicyon wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:
The scanning support skills are now high-rank skills with very little usefulness. I always thought they were kind of over-ranked previously at 10%/level, now at only 5%/level there's not really much point in sinking a ton of training time into them...


Indeed. Just checked, Astrometric Rangefinding is a rank 8 skill and Astrometric Pinpointing and Acquisition are both rank 5 skills. Seeing their effectiveness will be halved and that having Astrometrics at level V is actualy enough it seems these skills are more or less obsolete.


You could say the same thing about lots of skills and people still train them. Look at the spec skills , they are 2% per level and have a similar rank not too mention that there are tonnes of them.

When you are trying to scan some one down on a log off timer time precious .
Mister Tuggles
THE AESIR.
#20 - 2013-05-16 09:42:08 UTC
The probing skills look to be getting hit HARD with the nerf bat. Astrometric Rangefinding's (you know, the rank 8 skill) effective bonus is being HALVED! 27+ days of training to get it to level 5, and it is being bent over and raped by the nerf bat. Sucks for people that trained it.
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