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Help with HS mining Flotilla?
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Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#21 - 2013-05-13 13:19:50 UTC
Its certainly a viable alternative, and also a cheap one too. I think I can utilize both methods, depending on who is online at that time for the mining ops (as I said we have 3 orca players, but a lot more can fit itty Vs). C:
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2013-05-13 16:52:34 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
How does the above fleet setup look? Any feedback would be vastly appreciated, cheers...


The damage control on the skiff is kind of overkill IMO. It does offer a lot of extra protection, but you're way past the point of being the easiest target just by being in a tanked skiff. Unless they're coming after you personally they're going to pick softer targets. It's a risk vs reward trade off though, so do what feels right to you.

The corax doesn't add much to the fleet either. If the orca/skiffs have even marginal drone skills the rats will be quickly dispatched, so having a dedicated destroyer boat hanging out seems like a waste. Even if you get jammed, if you re-target the rock before the cycle ends you still get the ice. If you have a spare pilot I think a scythe would be a better choice. It can lock up 8 barges and pretty much **** block a gank attempt. But that's a boring job unless one of the miners is dual boxing.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#23 - 2013-05-13 17:37:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Thanks for the feedback. I would like to keep the DC on, max yield is not the absolute target for this setup.

Regarding the Corax, I think it can help with the fleet OP (and I will be the one flying that). A problem that you may encounter in caldari 0.7 and 0.6 space is gurista despoilers and saboteurs trying to jam the ships. The range on those ships is significantly more than the targeting range of exhumers, and the Orcas drones may or may not have the range to intercept them depending on where they spawn in the field (it is a given that the skiffs/procurers would not be bundled up due to suicide SB reasons).

Also another fun part is that the Corax can be used as a spotter for ganking recon ships that passively target and analyze the ships before acting as warp beacons for a jihad squad. Having an amateur suicide ganking alt myself (and enjoying using it greatly), its only reasonable to use the Corax to spot them and...dispatch them in my blaster alt if they have chosen a low EHP setup (I find that they tend to do so many times). C:

Overall, the reason for this fleet is to educate newbie (or not) miners in combined fleet ops, and preparing them for using skill plans and setups that can protect them against pirate aggression and get them ready to take the next step (WH and null ops). The ultimate goal is to make our miners behave like PvP players, acknowledging risks in their given profession and developing the mentality of wanting more social interaction in the game, while adding content of their own in case of a gank or a wardec instead of just dropping corp or docking indefinitely.

The name of the fleet will be "The HTFU Train" after all...XD

Lastly, for the newbies in the group we are planning to have a ship replacement/procurement plan, based on the skiff and the procurer. Since the latter loadout is missing in this thread, here is what I was thinking of using.

[Procurer, HSicmT]

Damage Control II
Ice Harvester Upgrade II

Thermic Dissipation Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Medium Shield Extender II

Ice Harvester II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Ice Harvester Accelerator I

Hobgoblin II x5

Yield is 13.5/s. EHP is 99.1k vs AM and 97.5k vs Void.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2013-05-13 18:26:31 UTC
Procurers are beasts.
Hae Sung
#25 - 2013-05-13 21:35:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Hae Sung
As other people have mentioned, freight containers make good dump points for mining operations. Some salient points on them:



  • Packaged Enormous Freight Containers take up 2500 m3 in your cargo hold. Our Orca generally holds 10+ of them for operations.
  • When Deployed the EFC holds 250k m3 - enough for several eager miners.
  • EFCs have no spawn timer and will persist after downtime
  • Only the person who deployed the freight container can deposit stuff into it. An Orca with a tractor beam works well for this.
  • Freighters in the same fleet can "scoop" the EFC into their cargo holds, holding generally 3 at a time.


For Ore or Ice operations I will position the Orca centrally to the group of miners and they jetison ore/ice as necessary from their holds for continuous operations. Orca player tractors ore in and deposits to EFC. Freighter pilot (one of our miners) goes and grabs freighter as necessary to pick up 3 EFCs at a time and ferry to destination before returning to mine.

Orca pilot is equipped with web/scrams in mids in case someone gets froggy and wants to steal from the can.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-05-14 00:13:31 UTC
I really don't understand people who try and steal from cans of mining ops. How much can they realistically get in a non-industrial XD?

Art of Explosions
Hae Sung
#27 - 2013-05-14 00:36:32 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
I really don't understand people who try and steal from cans of mining ops. How much can they realistically get in a non-industrial XD?



Well, with a freighter of their own they can get quite a bit. The same with Mackinaws doing a drive by pickup. Why mine for 30 mins when you can just dip into the can and take what you need?

This article/ALOD may amuse you if you haven't already seen it:

http://themittani.com/news/alod-neighborhood-watch
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-05-14 00:53:50 UTC
Well obviously is a freighter just decides to park next to your can, you're going to have plenty of time to reship into a T1 frigate with a point and hold it ransom if the pilot is a complete moron and takes something from it XD.

Much like the one in that article.

Art of Explosions
Huttan Funaila
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-05-14 01:02:22 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
I really don't understand people who try and steal from cans of mining ops. How much can they realistically get in a non-industrial XD?

Can flipping is not about theft, it is about getting a "limited engagement" flag so you can come back in the next 15 minutes and pop the miners without concord bothering you.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-05-14 01:06:04 UTC
that's only if the person who own's the can performs a hostile action against the flipper?

Although i guess you don't have much choice if they transfer all your ore to their own can.

Art of Explosions
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-05-14 01:57:13 UTC
If you're going to possibly use two orcas on large-scale mining ops you might consider putting the armor and shield resistance gang mods and a large remote shield booster on one and laser yield with a pair of large remote boosters on the second. If all of your mining ships are running fairly standardized builds and you synchronize when their ice harvesters start you can time your hauler orca's movements so that you can pop in and out of the station/whatever in time to restart the gang mod and keep the bonuses intact.

This gives you dual EHP bonuses that are always on, a mining yield bonus that should, with proper timing, never be down when needed, and the remote rep capacity to handle three ships under attack. If you really want something for loot/salvage/tractoring then put a noctis in your ship bay and one of your pilots can swap out for it as needed.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#32 - 2013-05-14 08:19:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Thanks for the feedback...C:

Regarding the use of EFCs and freighters, we will have to see whether those can be used by the corp. I am going to try and test all methods (an itty is cheap to test, we already have another Orca and we also have freighter pilots) before deciding on which fits the doctrine we want.

Quote:
If you're going to possibly use two orcas on large-scale mining ops you might consider putting the armor and shield resistance gang mods and a large remote shield booster on one and laser yield with a pair of large remote boosters on the second. If all of your mining ships are running fairly standardized builds and you synchronize when their ice harvesters start you can time your hauler orca's movements so that you can pop in and out of the station/whatever in time to restart the gang mod and keep the bonuses intact.

This gives you dual EHP bonuses that are always on, a mining yield bonus that should, with proper timing, never be down when needed, and the remote rep capacity to handle three ships under attack. If you really want something for loot/salvage/tractoring then put a noctis in your ship bay and one of your pilots can swap out for it as needed.


I dont think there is much merit in using an armor link, since all ships would be shield tanked. The noctis is a good idea to use as a tractoring ship if the number of miners involved is big enough to warrant more tractor beams. Regarding remote shield transporters, I do not think they can help a lot in this scenario for 3 reasons.

1. The amount of time you have to respond to a suicide gank is not enough to make LSTs worth it. By the time the Orca targets the afflicted ship and starts boosting (about 12s with lvl V skills and immediate response times), the ship would be probably dead.
2. The afflicted ship would have to be very close to the Orca (under 9km with lvl V skills), thus endangering the fleet vs SB attacks.
3. Since we are willing to use heavily tanked ships, the need of additional catas to pop one makes suicide ganking impractical. Thus, having logi support is superfluous, especially when it takes the place of more useful mods like links or tractors on the FC Orca.

hope that helps, cheers...C:
Vera Denjuros
Black Void Forges
#33 - 2013-05-14 17:44:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Denjuros
Sigh, I had a long message typed out but the forums ate it

Bombs dont work in hisec, only in nullsec. someone mentioned smartbombs? also a bad idea right along side ecm burst, because there is a high chance that you will hit some "innocent" bystander and get concordookened. Smart bombs are NOT that smart. :D

For shield reps to work you would need to have miners pre targeted but otherwise it wouldnt be a problem because remote shield rep actually lands forward, as opposed to armor rep that lands backwards. Thats why shield logis are absolutely amazing for mining fleets in nullsec, solo gankers dont stand a chance.

But! if you want to tank a Mack and dont need the cargo hold, then you might aswell use a skiff, the yield is the same if you use a DCU in a lowslot of the mack. If you do use skiffs then go for max yield on them because they really do have a great tank regardless, they provide 99% security against suiciders (1% dont care about isk and just want to watch the world burn)
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2013-05-15 11:23:23 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
I dont think there is much merit in using an armor link, since all ships would be shield tanked.


Every last bit of EHP counts.

Bertrand Butler wrote:
1. The amount of time you have to respond to a suicide gank is not enough to make LSTs worth it. By the time the Orca targets the afflicted ship and starts boosting (about 12s with lvl V skills and immediate response times), the ship would be probably dead.


The only time that matters is if/when the gankers hit you between ore deposits, and then it only matters for the orca packing a pair of shield reppers. I recall mention of a "wasted" survey scanner on an orca fitting. You could, in that scenario, swap it out for a sensor booster and get the lock time down to 7 seconds which will help for those situations where the mobile orca just got into the belt, hostiles just jumped in, and you want to get "your" ships locked up for repping in case you get pestered.

Bertrand Butler wrote:
2. The afflicted ship would have to be very close to the Orca (under 9km with lvl V skills), thus endangering the fleet vs SB attacks.


Honestly, while that's a valid consideration I don't see that it's really a major consideration in the grand scheme of things. SB ganks are inherently wasteful, and unless they're doing it purely for s***s and giggles you'd have to present a very juicy target to warrant the wastage if your ships are otherwise well-tanked. In the event that they are doing it for S&G then they're going to do it regardless of whether you're clustered or not, and at that point all arguments for/against clustering for remote repping or not pretty much go straight out the window.

Bertrand Butler wrote:
3. Since we are willing to use heavily tanked ships, the need of additional catas to pop one makes suicide ganking impractical. Thus, having logi support is superfluous, especially when it takes the place of more useful mods like links or tractors on the FC Orca.


Of course if everyone's in LST range tractors can be a tad superfluous too. ;-)
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#35 - 2013-05-15 12:30:32 UTC
Under that kind of setup I would use Skiffs for a start, drop off stuff into Orca nand then haul from Orca with freighter or deep space transport depending on the number of miners. If its more than 10 miners you want freighter.

A skiff with 10 mn AB does 600 m/s (need powergrid rig).

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#36 - 2013-05-15 13:50:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Thanks for the feedback guys..

Indeed, the plan is to use Skiffs for the job. I dont think that a prop mod will be used on them, you will need to sacrifice tank or yield for it.

Quote:
Every last bit of EHP counts.


Well yes, but it would be rather superfluous for a shield tanked ship that can already withstand 14 T2 catas. The Skiffs we plan to use have 122k EHP (cold) against AM ammo, an armor link would push that to...124k. If going for 3 links, it would be vastly more efficient to use the MLFE or the HCE over an armor link. ;)
Screenlag
Armaggedon Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#37 - 2013-05-15 14:19:35 UTC
get rid of the useless mining ganglink and get a shield harmonizing instead if you're worried about tanking. Another 18% resistances
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#38 - 2013-05-16 00:31:21 UTC
Screenlag wrote:
get rid of the useless mining ganglink and get a shield harmonizing instead if you're worried about tanking. Another 18% resistances


Read the thread, we already have one.
coolzero
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-05-16 09:59:03 UTC
maby use a skiff like this

[Skiff, Skiff MaxYield 1.2]
Ice Harvester Upgrade II
Ice Harvester Upgrade II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II
EM Ward Amplifier II
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

Ice Harvester II

Medium Ice Harvester Accelerator I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Hammerhead II x5


83k EHP with full orca boost(shield hamonizer II)

still very gank proof with max ice yield)
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#40 - 2013-05-16 10:25:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Thanks for the feedback. The loadout you posted has half the tank of the Skiff setup we are going to use. As I have said, max yield is not the issue for this fleet.

Also, a thing that if find all the time in HS mining ships when ganking them. Most of the miners try to close the em hole of their ships, but that does nothing against suicide ganking. Plugging the hole makes sense when mining in LS/null or if mining under a wardec. Remember that ganking ships use predominantly blasters due to their isk/DPS ratio, so the damage you want to resist against is thermal and kinetic.

Hope that helps, cheers...C:
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