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Clone costs and old vets

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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#121 - 2013-05-15 04:43:52 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Tippia wrote:
IWhy should you be barred from using fun ships just because you've used a single character for a long time?
You are not barred... it just costs you.

Why should it cost more to fly cheaper and weaker ships than stronger, more expensive ones? Where's that risk vs. reward thing you were talking about again?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#122 - 2013-05-15 04:44:24 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Why should you be barred from using fun ships just because you've used a single character for a long time?
You are not barred... it just costs you.
…for no good reason. Why should it?


It costs extra because I am able to use my racial Battleship 5 skills to pilot my Condor, you dolt.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#123 - 2013-05-15 04:47:26 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
High clone costs are detrimental to high SP characters. Those characters have very substantial advantages.

No, they don't. The advantages they incur are a direct result of what ships they fly and what modules they fit to those ships. That determines which of their skills are applicable. SP as a whole means absolutely nothing about your ability to fly any given ship.

Corey Fumimasa wrote:
The cost of clones dampens those advantages, in effect limiting the difference between old and new players.

Except that a 15m SP character with focused skills could actually have better and more applicable skills towards flying an AF for example than someone with 200m SP in a whole myriad of stuff.
That's the point, the higher SP level doesn't incur any advantage in and of itself.

Corey Fumimasa wrote:
To remove clone costs would further separate old and new characters/alliances, and exacerbate the aforementioned issues of mudflation and creep. It would be like giving all players a 20% bonus to their current SP, pushing the highest skilled characters even further ahead.

No, it won't.

Corey Fumimasa wrote:
There will come a point at which the newest players have no way to effect the older players, and at that point you are not playing on a single shard, rather 2 or 3 shards that are on the same server.

Do we even play the same game? This is not true at all, and clone costs being removed wouldn't affect this.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
OfBalance
Caldari State
#124 - 2013-05-15 04:48:48 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:

High clone costs are detrimental to high SP characters. Those characters have very substantial advantages. The cost of clones dampens those advantages, in effect limiting the difference between old and new players.


Except we know only a certain amount of sp is going to be relavent to a given ship. The clone cost advantage is redundant and does not help new players. It only negatively affects vets.

Corey Fumimasa wrote:

To remove them would further separate old and new characters/alliances, and exacerbate the aforementioned issues of mudflation and creep. It would be like giving all players a 20% bonus to their current SP, pushing the highest skilled characters even further ahead.


I'm not following this logic. In what way does reducing clone costs give any player a combat advantage? It is absolutely neutral in this regard.

Corey Fumimasa wrote:

There will come a point at which the newest players have no way to effect the older players, and at that point you are not playing on a single shard, rather 2 or 3 shards that are on the same server.


In the long run we'll all have infinitely high skillpoints and will pay infinitely higher clone costs. At that point the cost disincentive is universally negative since clone prices will be much higher on everyone relative to their income. You can safely hand-wave about vets being far too wealthy to bother over clone costs when we're a minority, but when the average player is at 200m sp? I suppose you could argue inflation would negate that, but I don't think predicating game design on that premise is a good idea.

Corey Fumimasa wrote:

I for one want to have more competition, not less, even if my char wont be as ubber as I want him to be right this instant.


Then you should be all for eliminating the artificial disincentive. The competition (combat) we're talking about is discouraged by this tax on veterans. It means only the vets with isk to burn will hop into a ship that would easily render them a pod-kill. In a situation where this disincentive were gone. More vets would be able to fly cheap and disposable ships (which give better odds to their newer opponents).

It's a case not of eliminating risk, but of moving risk into actual combat where it belongs.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#125 - 2013-05-15 04:49:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Tippia wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
[High clone costs are detrimental to high SP characters. Those characters have very substantial advantages.
What advantages are those?


Options and wealth.
Tippia wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:

There will come a point at which the newest players have no way to effect the older players
Not really, no. The level cap already ensures this.

An alpha clone character could win a 1 v 1 vs an Omicron clone, but the Omicron wont worry much about the loss. We should all be scared of one another. Once the outcome is certain then the mystery is gone.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#126 - 2013-05-15 04:55:12 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
[High clone costs are detrimental to high SP characters. Those characters have very substantial advantages.
What advantages are those?


Options and wealth.

Options, yes. Wealth, no. Prove to me that every veteran player is wealthy.

Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Not really, no. The level cap already ensures this.

An alpha clone character could win a 1 v 1 vs an Omicron clone, but the Omicron wont worry much about the loss. We should all be scared of one another. Once the outcome is certain then the mystery is gone.

The outcome of a fight is never certain. I've beaten six-year-old players with month old alts before. I've also won three-on-one fights with players who had the same amounts of SP I did.

Do you actually believe the words coming out of your own mouth?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2013-05-15 05:14:02 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…for no good reason. Why should it?
Who said it should? Right now it is a game mechanic... higher skill points means higher clone cost. If you choose to follow that path then... your choice.


Are you asking is it 'fair' or is it a game mechanic that is overall detrimental to game play?

That later might require an adjustment to the game.

The former requires... EvE is hard and dark and isn't 'fair'. HTFU.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#128 - 2013-05-15 05:18:22 UTC
And as I asked before, why should high clone costs negatively affect the pvpers, but not the miners and mission runners who never lose their pods? If bigger clones need to be more expensive, shouldn't all players be exposed to this sort of "risk?"

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
#129 - 2013-05-15 05:19:16 UTC
CCP should add passive income based on the amount of SP.

Ya know... or just make a flat pod cost. Possibly zero.

Now with 100% less Troll.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2013-05-15 05:19:58 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

Why should it cost more to fly cheaper and weaker ships than stronger, more expensive ones? Where's that risk vs. reward thing you were talking about again?
Perhaps you misunderstood. You using a lower skilled toon in a cheaper clone is a different Risk vs Reward than using a more experience toon in a more expediencies clone (assume the same ship and load out).

Your 500,000 skill point toon will not have the skills as your 20M skill point toon does, but the cost of dying will be higher. You risk more, but you should do better in combat (reward).
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2013-05-15 05:21:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Bi-Mi Lansatha
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
And as I asked before, why should high clone costs negatively affect the pvpers, but not the miners and mission runners who never lose their pods? If bigger clones need to be more expensive, shouldn't all players be exposed to this sort of "risk?"
Are you saying it is not fair?
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2013-05-15 05:21:55 UTC
Tom Gerard wrote:
CCP should add passive income based on the amount of SP.

Ya know... or just make a flat pod cost. Possibly zero.
How about a tax (ISK sink) based on SP? Blink
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#133 - 2013-05-15 05:23:43 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

Why should it cost more to fly cheaper and weaker ships than stronger, more expensive ones? Where's that risk vs. reward thing you were talking about again?
Perhaps you misunderstood. You using a lower skilled toon in a cheaper clone is a different Risk vs Reward than using a more experience toon in a more expediencies clone (assume the same ship and load out).

Your 500,000 skill point toon will not have the skills as your 20M skill point toon does, but the cost of dying will be higher. You risk more, but you should do better in combat (reward).


How do you justify the difference between my 15M SP FW alt and my 100M+ SP main characters having literally no effective difference? How do you justify 15M SP FW alts straight up outperforming industrialists with 100M+ SP?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Some Rando
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2013-05-15 05:24:02 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Your 500,000 skill point toon will not have the skills as your 20M skill point toon does, but the cost of dying will be higher. You risk more, but you should do better in combat (reward).

By that reasoning, I should only have to pay for a 35mil SP clone, at most, when flying a combat cruiser since that's the maximum SP I can use while flying one.

CCP has no sense of humour.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#135 - 2013-05-15 05:24:41 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Your 500,000 skill point toon will not have the skills as your 20M skill point toon does, but the cost of dying will be higher. You risk more, but you should do better in combat (reward).

But my 20-million SP character will have the same skills as my 150-million SP character with regard to flying a frigate or cruiser hull, though the costs of dying will still be different. Your whole argument breaks apart at this point.

Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
And as I asked before, why should high clone costs negatively affect the pvpers, but not the miners and mission runners who never lose their pods? If bigger clones need to be more expensive, shouldn't all players be exposed to this sort of "risk?"
Are you saying it is not fair?

I am saying it isn't balanced.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#136 - 2013-05-15 05:55:14 UTC
If you've got over 100 million skillpoints and can't afford the increased clone costs, then you're doing something wrong.

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#137 - 2013-05-15 05:57:12 UTC
Way to read the thread, Einstein.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#138 - 2013-05-15 06:14:43 UTC
Xen Solarus wrote:
If you've got over 100 million skillpoints and can't afford the increased clone costs, then you're doing something wrong.

Wrong and furthermore wholly irrelevant.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#139 - 2013-05-15 06:22:38 UTC
Ratting carriers.

Oh god.
Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
#140 - 2013-05-15 06:26:13 UTC
CLONES ARE TOO DAMNED EXPENSIVE.

This is why I don't PVP outside of RVB.

This is why I go inactive during RVB third party wars.

Now with 100% less Troll.