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Navy Raven: The Return of the King

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Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-05-14 15:04:54 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
edit: Updated Odyssey CNR time to kill stats due to rof error.

It's a mixed bag but it seems that the RoF bonus is still better than the Explosion Radius (Er) bonus. Basically with the RoF bonus you can fire 4 volleys to the Odyssey CNR's 3 volleys. OTOH, the Odyssey CNR will suffer a little less from NPC defenders.

RoF seems to be better for Battleships, Er is great for one shotting BCs and slow cruisers.

RoF:
* current: 6.74s
* current + cruise buffs: 6.41s
* Odyssey w Rof nerf: 8.54s

To kill a Pith Eliminator:
* current: 4.36 volleys, 33.7s (Fury, 4xCN BCU, PWNAGE, Rigor2, Rigor1, Flare2)
* cruise buffs only: 3.49 volleys, 25.6 s (Fury, 4xCN BCU, PWNAGE, Rigor2, Rigor1, Flare2)
* Odyssey: 3.05 volleys, 34.2 seconds. (Fury, 4xCN BCU, PWNAGE, 2xRigor2, Flare2)

Gist General:
* current: 3.31 volleys, 27.0s
* cruise buffs only: 2.65 volleys, 19.2s
* Odyssey: 2.32 volleys, 25.6

Gistatis Tribunus
* curent: 1.3 volleys, 13.5s
* cruise buffs only: 1.13 volleys, 12.8s
* Odyssey: 0.80 volleys, 8.5s

Pithatis Death Dealer
* current: 0.97 volleys, 6.7s
* cruise buffs only: 0.79 volleys, 6.4s
* Odyssey: 0.68 volleys, 8.5s

Pithum Annihilator
* current: 1.05 volleys, 13.5s
* cruise buffs only: 0.92 volleys, 6.4s
* Odyssey: 0.64 volleys, 8.5s

Mercenary Corporal
* current: 2.04 volleys, 20.2s
* cruise buffs only: 1.78 volleys, 12.8s
* Odyssey: 1.25 volleys, 17.1s

Arch Gistum Centurion
* current: 4.25 volleys, 33.7s
* cruise buffs only: 3.71 volleys, 25.6s
* Odyssey: 2.61 volleys, 25.6s

Angel Viper:
* current: 7.74 volleys, 53.9s
* cruise buffs only: 6.75 volleys, 44.8s
* Odyssey: 4.75 volleys, 42.7s


edit: CNR Odyssey uses 2xRigor2 and 1xFlare2


Any chance you can use this for precisions aswell, and a fit containing two RF TP's and a combo of Rigor II, Rigor II, Rigor I ? I would be highly interested in them.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-05-14 15:16:01 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Stuff...


OK so from your provided numbers - I'll take your word for it that they're accurate as I'm at work and cannot check -

(1) Where ever you have put a decimal, this should really be rounded up to the next integer. You can't fire "2.61 volleys" to kill an Arch Gistum Centurion; you actually have to fire 3.00 volleys @ 8.54 seconds (25.62s) instead of 5 volleys @ 6.74 seconds (33.7). The new CNR will take 8.08 seconds less, which is more than a whole current cycle quicker.

(2) In virtually every example you list, the Odyssey CNR is at least one volley quicker, sometimes several quicker. ODyssey volleys take longer, but you need a 4 Odyssey (34.16s) vs 5 current volley (33.7s) situation for the lines to cross. The Pith Eliminator is an example here - but a simple +3% damage implant brings the Odyssey CNR to 3 volleys while leaving the current one at 5.

(3) Even with the fraction volleys counted, the Odyssey CNR is getting quicker kill times with almost every ship (except the Guristas BCs which just die).

The tl:dr is that for the great majority of missions, the Odyssey Cruise CNR will finish the mission significantly, perceptibly faster, and use less ammo to do it as a bonus. The fact that Odyssey CNRs will also move over 1/3 faster is icing on the cake.

Seriously, how did you make it to the CSM... you are telling me it's better IF you manage to hit the rats for just the right amount of damage that they require to die? LMAO, i'd like to see that actually working in real game.

I highly doubt that and even then with all the various variations in skills etc in average the CNR IS POORER!
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#23 - 2013-05-14 15:25:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Johnson Oramara wrote:

Seriously, how did you make it to the CSM... you are telling me it's better IF you manage to hit the rats for just the right amount of damage that they require to die? LMAO, i'd like to see that actually working in real game.

I highly doubt that and even then with all the various variations in skills etc in average the CNR IS POORER!


I think time will prove you wrong on that, the new cruise missiles + the CNR's new bonus and more room for Rigs + another mid slot more than makes up for the loss of a utility high and a RoF bonus. Rof bonus rather than velocity bonus would just mean the CNR would get nerfed 3 months later, it would be over powered as hell.
stoicfaux
#24 - 2013-05-14 15:30:13 UTC
Numbers with pdf: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3026225#post3026225

The updated spreadsheet is in the OP in that thread.

Again, the numbers should be accurate, but I still need to stop check them on Eve/Sisi tonight.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-05-14 15:37:46 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Johnson Oramara wrote:

Seriously, how did you make it to the CSM... you are telling me it's better IF you manage to hit the rats for just the right amount of damage that they require to die? LMAO, i'd like to see that actually working in real game.

I highly doubt that and even then with all the various variations in skills etc in average the CNR IS POORER!


I think time will prove you wrong on that, the new cruise missiles + the CNR's new bonus and more room for Rigs + another mid slot more than makes up for the loss of a utility high and a RoF bonus. Rof bonus rather than velocity bonus would just mean te CNR would get nerfed 3 months later, it would be over powered as hell.

No i want you to think about the current CNR with the cruise missile + rigs buff. THEN compare that to the proposed one.

Give me a reason why i would use the new CNR instead of the t1 Typhoon? Heck, or even T1 Raven with a TP.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#26 - 2013-05-14 15:41:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Johnson Oramara wrote:

Seriously, how did you make it to the CSM... you are telling me it's better IF you manage to hit the rats for just the right amount of damage that they require to die? LMAO, i'd like to see that actually working in real game.

I highly doubt that and even then with all the various variations in skills etc in average the CNR IS POORER!


I think time will prove you wrong on that, the new cruise missiles + the CNR's new bonus and more room for Rigs + another mid slot more than makes up for the loss of a utility high and a RoF bonus. Rof bonus rather than velocity bonus would just mean te CNR would get nerfed 3 months later, it would be over powered as hell.

No i want you to think about the current CNR with the cruise missile + rigs buff. THEN compare that to the proposed one.

Give me a reason why i would use the new CNR instead of the t1 Typhoon? Heck, or even T1 Raven with a TP.


Better tank for 1 (some PvE content can still kill). Better rig set up compared to the regular raven. Easier to fit with it's slot lay out. MUCh better mission (or in my case, anomaly) blitzer. Take your pick.
Wolf Taron
Redshift Anomalies
#27 - 2013-05-14 15:48:23 UTC
I will be there Cool
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-05-14 16:28:47 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Johnson Oramara wrote:

Seriously, how did you make it to the CSM... you are telling me it's better IF you manage to hit the rats for just the right amount of damage that they require to die? LMAO, i'd like to see that actually working in real game.

I highly doubt that and even then with all the various variations in skills etc in average the CNR IS POORER!


I think time will prove you wrong on that, the new cruise missiles + the CNR's new bonus and more room for Rigs + another mid slot more than makes up for the loss of a utility high and a RoF bonus. Rof bonus rather than velocity bonus would just mean te CNR would get nerfed 3 months later, it would be over powered as hell.

No i want you to think about the current CNR with the cruise missile + rigs buff. THEN compare that to the proposed one.

Give me a reason why i would use the new CNR instead of the t1 Typhoon? Heck, or even T1 Raven with a TP.


Better tank for 1 (some PvE content can still kill). Better rig set up compared to the regular raven. Easier to fit with it's slot lay out. MUCh better mission (or in my case, anomaly) blitzer. Take your pick.

Like anyone would need anymore tank unless they wanted to pull whole room just for kicks. What do you mean by better rigs? regular Raven has 400calib and CNR will be raised from 350 to 400. And the remaining tiny things won't really warrant it the ~500m price tag.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-05-14 16:34:43 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Well that's potentially a hell of a nerf to the CNR. 7 launchers / .75 rof = 9.33 effective launchers. I'm not sure a 25% reduction in explosion radius is worth the loss of ~14% DPS.



actually explosion radius have increased Lol
CCP Rise wrote:

...
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Torpedo and Cruise Missile explosion radius


Note: i'm sure Rise misused + and - here... Or this is some kind of math i'm not aware of.....

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#30 - 2013-05-14 16:36:36 UTC
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Johnson Oramara wrote:

Seriously, how did you make it to the CSM... you are telling me it's better IF you manage to hit the rats for just the right amount of damage that they require to die? LMAO, i'd like to see that actually working in real game.

I highly doubt that and even then with all the various variations in skills etc in average the CNR IS POORER!


I think time will prove you wrong on that, the new cruise missiles + the CNR's new bonus and more room for Rigs + another mid slot more than makes up for the loss of a utility high and a RoF bonus. Rof bonus rather than velocity bonus would just mean te CNR would get nerfed 3 months later, it would be over powered as hell.

No i want you to think about the current CNR with the cruise missile + rigs buff. THEN compare that to the proposed one.

Give me a reason why i would use the new CNR instead of the t1 Typhoon? Heck, or even T1 Raven with a TP.


Better tank for 1 (some PvE content can still kill). Better rig set up compared to the regular raven. Easier to fit with it's slot lay out. MUCh better mission (or in my case, anomaly) blitzer. Take your pick.

Like anyone would need anymore tank unless they wanted to pull whole room just for kicks. What do you mean by better rigs? regular Raven has 400calib and CNR will be raised from 350 to 400. And the remaining tiny things won't really warrant it the ~500m price tag.


All PVE isn't equal, the new CNR will run rings around the ships you mention in null pve (where tank and speed actually matter). These changes go a long way to replacing the epicness I lost when HMLs got nerfed.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#31 - 2013-05-14 16:38:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
March rabbit wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Well that's potentially a hell of a nerf to the CNR. 7 launchers / .75 rof = 9.33 effective launchers. I'm not sure a 25% reduction in explosion radius is worth the loss of ~14% DPS.



actually explosion radius have increased Lol
CCP Rise wrote:

...
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Torpedo and Cruise Missile explosion radius


Note: i'm sure Rise misused + and - here... Or this is some kind of math i'm not aware of.....


Increase explosion radius is a good thing for missiles because it means more damage applied to smaller, faster things.

As malcanis can attest, you can't please everyone, but Im really happy about what's happening to the CNR, it will fit in much better with how I PVE.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-05-14 16:56:03 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Well that's potentially a hell of a nerf to the CNR. 7 launchers / .75 rof = 9.33 effective launchers. I'm not sure a 25% reduction in explosion radius is worth the loss of ~14% DPS.



actually explosion radius have increased Lol
CCP Rise wrote:

...
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Torpedo and Cruise Missile explosion radius


Note: i'm sure Rise misused + and - here... Or this is some kind of math i'm not aware of.....


Increase explosion radius is a good thing for missiles because it means more damage applied to smaller, faster things.

As malcanis can attest, you can't please everyone, but Im really happy about what's happening to the CNR, it will fit in much better with how I PVE.

Good for you, in our case we can replace it with Typhoon or Raven and they will perform exactly the same. I guess it's time to blow the dust of my Golem.
Lugalzagezi666
#33 - 2013-05-14 17:02:28 UTC
Its "explosion radius bonus" and anyone who has any idea about the game would take raw dps bonus instead of "damage projection" bonus any time. Especially on pve ship that provides enough mids to EASILY take care of any damage projection issues.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-05-14 17:11:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnson Oramara
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Its "explosion radius bonus" and anyone who has any idea about the game would take raw dps bonus instead of "damage projection" bonus any time. Especially on pve ship that provides enough mids to EASILY take care of any damage projection issues.


Indeed, anyone knowingly going after cruisers and smaller shouldn't even think about using missile battleship for that...
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#35 - 2013-05-14 17:27:12 UTC
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Its "explosion radius bonus" and anyone who has any idea about the game would take raw dps bonus instead of "damage projection" bonus any time. Especially on pve ship that provides enough mids to EASILY take care of any damage projection issues.


Indeed, anyone knowingly going after cruisers and smaller shouldn't even think about using missile battleship for that...


Why, exactly do you think the CNR and Typhoon are getting explosion radius/velocity bonuses then? Not using BS sized weapons on smaller ships is a choice, not a requirement. I have almost all 5s in drones and dronges don't kill elite frigs fast enough for my taste.

And i use FoF missles when jammed by guristas, what do you do when jammed/scrammed and your drones are too stupid to attack the right ships? it's annoying in high sec, it's positively deadly in guristas null.i

On the occasion I do high sec missions I would dual box a Mach and (FoF) Tengu, the tengu is still useful even after the HML nerf, but this new beast of a support CNR is going to replace it as my preferred support ship.
Lugalzagezi666
#36 - 2013-05-14 17:33:32 UTC
You can already comfortably kill cruisers just using rigors and 2 tps. Plus 1 mid means another painter and increased calibration means upgrading one rigor to t2. So you dont need any new "precision" bonus to efficiently kill cruisers and battleships. Wasted bonus and in case of cruise cnr its actually 2 wasted bonuses.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#37 - 2013-05-14 17:43:25 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
You can already comfortably kill cruisers just using rigors and 2 tps. Plus 1 mid means another painter and increased calibration means upgrading one rigor to t2. So you dont need any new "precision" bonus to efficiently kill cruisers and battleships. Wasted bonus and in case of cruise cnr its actually 2 wasted bonuses.




So you just skip the Guristas missions, because TPs are useless when you are jammed, and drones might or migh tnot work but nowadays might get shoot. That leaves the standard "switch to FoFs" move and this explosion radius bonus will let you kill those elite scramming frigs faster.

You seemd to be thinking best case situations, i tend to look at the "WTF am i going to do now cases" (which can happen in high sec missions but that DO happen all the time in null, I can't even remember all the times my old tengu was able to kill a scramming frig right on time).

Given what CCP Rise has said about ship balancing, I seriously doubt they are going to change tack now and give the new CNR a RoF bonus. i think people will adapt to the new CNR and find novel ways to work around any weaknesses, I'm already playing with EFT fits (with the files from Failheap challenge) and it looks all lovely to me the way I fly CNRs.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-05-14 17:48:28 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
... Rof bonus rather than velocity bonus would just mean the CNR would get nerfed 3 months later, it would be over powered as hell.
I believe you are correct, but it would have been a wonderful ride while it lasted. Blink
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#39 - 2013-05-14 17:53:44 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
... Rof bonus rather than velocity bonus would just mean the CNR would get nerfed 3 months later, it would be over powered as hell.
I believe you are correct, but it would have been a wonderful ride while it lasted. Blink


And i'd abuse the unholy hell out of it...for 3 months.
Lugalzagezi666
#40 - 2013-05-14 18:08:32 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
...

I NEVER use fofs in missions because its absolute waste of time - 10s reload and then massively lower dps output for 25 volleys. Not to mention you cant focus their dps unless you can sit right on top your target and gl doing that in slowass raven.

If you are getting jammed you should consider using eccm, not shooting triggers and eradicating jamming npcs first. I cant see how is precision bonus going to help you against jammers when most annoying jamming npcs are elite cruisers and you can already hit them just fine with rigors and tps.