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Counter to kiting Condor
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Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#21 - 2013-04-18 06:52:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Mad Target wrote:
...I don't want to train for caldari or minmatar... I like to fight for Amarr and use lasers as my primary weapon. I will probably start flying slicers when i get more isk and skills and i will definitely give coercer a go.


Don't worry if you are set on Amarr. The gunnery support skills you learn for their weapon systems like Rapid Firing, Sharpshooter, Trajectory Analysis etc will be equally useful on projectiles and hybrids. The only problem I have noticed with Amarr ships (admittedly from the other end of the barrel) is range with T1 setups. But if you have a properly set up Punisher or Executioner (i.e. T2 weapons and crystals) then you should be OK.

Slicers are certainly dangerous but will just be expensive kill mails until you have the skills to fly it properly.

Missiles are relatively simpler to fly since you don't need to worry about transversal or range (as much). But they generally do less damage than a good gunnery setup.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#22 - 2013-04-18 07:16:21 UTC
Fit out a pulse Executioner and burn straight into the condor.

He can TD you all he wants at a couple km range he'll die very quickly!

Executioner can fit a decent tank as well.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Seraph Castillon
In Control
Neon Nightmares
#23 - 2013-04-18 11:56:56 UTC
-Arty Thrasher
-Damp or tanked Condor
-Maulus
-Light Missile Kestrel
-MWD Merlin

Please note that you can fit a Condor with a 5k buffer tank and a TD or web. Catching those with a standard scram/web frigate doesn't necessarily mean you'll win. You may have taken too much damage already.
l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
#24 - 2013-04-18 13:18:17 UTC
laz0rs are good, you don't need missiles ships.

They are good though.

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
ROXGenghis
Perkone
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-04-18 15:07:46 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
If you have a MWD, then slingshot him

Quote:
BTW, a single unbonused damp will reduce a Condor's lock range to about 20 km, which is still enough for them to kite you.


No it isn't. A Condor would have to be orbiting at around 15 to stay comfortably within 20km range during its orbit, which would be really easy to slingshot either out of lock range (thus allowing him to escape) or into scram range.


We seem to be disagreeing due to two assumptions. First, you are assuming that the OP has an MWD, but he says he only has an AB. Second, you are assuming the Condor's only option is to orbit, but he can also manually fly to keep range. I think that an MWD Condor pilot can manually keep range between 13 and 20 km from an AB Punisher.
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#26 - 2013-04-18 15:31:38 UTC
ROXGenghis is right.

If you have only AB and are catched by a capable Nano-Condor pilot the only thing which will safe you is an ECM (if you can get a lock for short time) or FOF Missiles or an active tank which is good enough to out tank his damage until your friends arrive.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#27 - 2013-04-18 15:45:33 UTC
Quote:
We seem to be disagreeing due to two assumptions. First, you are assuming that the OP has an MWD, but he says he only has an AB. Second, you are assuming the Condor's only option is to orbit, but he can also manually fly to keep range. I think that an MWD Condor pilot can manually keep range between 13 and 20 km from an AB Punisher.


I am not assuming, I said that he could slingshot if he had a MWD.

it's not physically possible (as in, server ticks aren't granular enough) to manually pilot so precisely as to stay between 13 and 20km against someone who is actively trying to **** with your range control and doing it properly, even in something only going ~1.1 km/s
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-04-19 00:41:07 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
I'm in the uni so I'm not allowed in FW but is there a rule that you're only allowed to fly that particular faction's ships depending on what militia you're in?

If so how so pirate ships fit in?


The best thing you can do next time you log on is leave the uni and join a FW corp. Why does practically every E-UNI post say that they 'aren't allowed to do something'? Isn't the whole point of EVE that you CAN do interesting stuff? I am starting to understand the poor reputation they are getting.

FW is easily one of the best places to learn small-scale PvP (not just press F1 in a blob). Anyway, I was killed by a unista in a FW plex just last night. Big smile A good fight, very close.


I have no intention of joining a milita :) it's far more fun just shooting both sides since I get double the targets :p.

The reason I asked my original question is that the guy seems adamant on using a short range laser ship against a kiting rocket ship which just seems to be like using your mouth to open a car door: it's pretty hard (I've tried).

If you just fit up a rail incursus or something similar... kiting ships become just annoying flies. PvP in eve is all about range dictation: if you deny that from a kiting ship they either die or have to leave since they're usually light on tank and don't have super high dps.

Art of Explosions
2manno Asp
Death By Design
#29 - 2013-04-19 01:29:08 UTC  |  Edited by: 2manno Asp
Mad Target wrote:
2manno Asp wrote:
Mad Target wrote:
Hello everyone,

Let me start by saying i'm quite new here. I'm interested in FW and joined it yesterday. I believe Amarr need more numbers in the fight against Minmatar so i joined the golden fleets with lasers and stuff.

I tried running some novice plexes already and somehow everytime a kiting Condor would warp in and tackle me. I'm interested in fighting so I stayed the first time in my AB fit Punisher which was not fast enough and did not have the range to deal any damage. I died.
I came back with an Executioner (still AB fit, can't use MWD yet) and another kiting Condor appeared. I managed just to get out of disruptor range and warp off with my armor running low. I tried fitting beam lasers with radio ammo and still did not do much.

My fit is something like this:

Highs - 3x beams or pulse lasers
Mids - AB, web and scram
Lows - damage control, plate and a rep

Of course, there's the question of skillpoints too but it seems missiles have superior damage projection and they use target disruptors while kitting. What would you suggest to do if I'm solo and flying a T1 Amarr frigate?

I would rather stay but for now I just have to warp out before getting locked otherwise I simply die without even putting up a fight.
Any feedback appreciated!


in the current meta, i suggest you stop training turret based ships immediately. that means dropping your amarr skill plan now.

train anything that shoots missles. caldari is obvious, minmatar have some good missle boats too.

the hardest counter to a td ship or damp ship, is a missle boat. they almost all have very long lock ranges and are immune to td's. also, if damped or even full-out jammed, you can always load auto-targeting missles.

i suggest a lm fit kestrel. load up caldari navy mjolnir missles and let them fly. if he's lightly tanked as your experience suggests, 2-3 volleys will put him on the pod express.


Want to thank everyone for advice and feedback! Did not expect to get this much of it. However the post above is a bit sad. I don't want to train for caldari or minmatar... I like to fight for Amarr and use lasers as my primary weapon. I will probably start flying slicers when i get more isk and skills and i will definitely give coercer a go.


i understand your sentiment. i originally had an amarr char (see portrait). then i realized that amarr ships have a CRUSHING lack of midslots, and T2 minmatar ships have AMAZING EM resists. not to mention that anyone fighting you knows you will be shooting em and therm. thus, can more easily plot against it.

it's a hard pill to swallow. at least it was for me. but the sooner you get on with it the better.
2manno Asp
Death By Design
#30 - 2013-04-19 01:53:59 UTC  |  Edited by: 2manno Asp
dp sorry
2manno Asp
Death By Design
#31 - 2013-04-19 01:55:08 UTC  |  Edited by: 2manno Asp
Mad Target wrote:
Don't worry if you are set on Amarr. The gunnery support skills you learn for their weapon systems like Rapid Firing, Sharpshooter, Trajectory Analysis etc will be equally useful on projectiles and hybrids.


this is one of your only real benefits to training amarr. that the skills are applicable to other gun-types.

the other is that amarr battleships classes and above are actually good. ofc, you have to get there, and you actually have to have these kinds of fights. without both...

Mad Target wrote:
Missiles are relatively simpler to fly since you don't need to worry about transversal or range (as much). But they generally do less damage than a good gunnery setup.


and missles will have much higher alpha. you can use eft or eve stats to guage how much damage your'e doing during a fight, but you'll usually be horribly mislead in actual applied dps.

drones don't apply dps as the stats say they do. turret ships suffer from tracking and range issues. alpha is significantly more important in shorter fights, and in fights where your fleet/self can volley ships in a few shots.

trust what i said before, and i'll modify that a bit because it really was meant for you. in the current meta for sub bs class solo/small gang players, missles are almost always better than anything else you'd be using. throw in a tracking disruptor and/or damps and you're good to go.
Mad Target
Doomheim
#32 - 2013-04-19 05:58:16 UTC
Well, I'll stick around in Amarr FW regardless. While the isk is going to be lower than say Minmatar it seems very easy to get in to fights which I like.

Learned about the warp in point in fw plexes and how to use D-scan. If i'm set to fight in short range i'll sit on the warp in point ready to tackle and shoot once I see incoming on short range D-scan. Lost a couple more frigate fights but I was actually dealing damage and not being kited to death. I just couldn't deal enough damage soon enough. But what can I expect with such low skills.

Also managed to complete a few plexes and got a bit of LP. I'll be able to buy more ships now. Also now i'm able to use MWD and fit rigs. Gives me more options.

I'm wondering how CCP is going to change missile launchers in summer. It may change the balance between them and other types of weapons.
YoYoMommy
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#33 - 2013-04-19 06:51:39 UTC
I also recently joined FW with a new amarr character so if you want some decent fits hit me up in eve mail and I can send you some for amarr fits. My favorite by far is the coercer if you are looking for sub-cruiser class ships for solo pvp.
STSxLight
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#34 - 2013-04-19 07:32:29 UTC
- in the case you are already in the plex and he comes for you its simple, stay at 0 at the beacon with ab on and scram web overheat, whe he lands spam aproach lock him up and kill him, if you are quick you can catch all of them

- in the case he is in the plex and you want to come in, he has a clear advantage as he is a kiting ship starting from range , in this case you have a lot of examples already on this page

GL o7

"Oh, you think nullsec is your ally. But you merely adopted nullsec; I was born in it, moulded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but BLINDING!"

my eve youtube channel  http://www.youtube.com/user/stsxlight/videos
The VC's
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-04-19 16:56:40 UTC
Rail Atron. T1 rails are pretty good and with the atrons falloff bonus fairly resistant to range disruption. If you are not td'd shoot thorium, if you are, shoot iron. The dps is weak but that kiting condor is unlikely to be tanked. You can get a decent AB/scram/web/repper/150mm Atron that fights at the edge of scram range with antimatter. Loading iron or thorium you can at the very least drive off a liking condor. Alternatively, swap to mwd rail and go at them. Their mwd will oblige you with a large sig radius for your rails to hit. My favourite method of killing kite condors is a mwd executioner. Burn towards them shooting scorch and when you get in range switch to conflag and give the the green death fait accompli, their large sig radius helping you again. The last thing people expect a kiting executioner to do is burn in close.
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-04-19 18:43:14 UTC
2manno Asp wrote:
Mad Target wrote:
2manno Asp wrote:
Mad Target wrote:
Hello everyone,

Let me start by saying i'm quite new here. I'm interested in FW and joined it yesterday. I believe Amarr need more numbers in the fight against Minmatar so i joined the golden fleets with lasers and stuff.

I tried running some novice plexes already and somehow everytime a kiting Condor would warp in and tackle me. I'm interested in fighting so I stayed the first time in my AB fit Punisher which was not fast enough and did not have the range to deal any damage. I died.
I came back with an Executioner (still AB fit, can't use MWD yet) and another kiting Condor appeared. I managed just to get out of disruptor range and warp off with my armor running low. I tried fitting beam lasers with radio ammo and still did not do much.

My fit is something like this:

Highs - 3x beams or pulse lasers
Mids - AB, web and scram
Lows - damage control, plate and a rep

Of course, there's the question of skillpoints too but it seems missiles have superior damage projection and they use target disruptors while kitting. What would you suggest to do if I'm solo and flying a T1 Amarr frigate?

I would rather stay but for now I just have to warp out before getting locked otherwise I simply die without even putting up a fight.
Any feedback appreciated!


in the current meta, i suggest you stop training turret based ships immediately. that means dropping your amarr skill plan now.

train anything that shoots missles. caldari is obvious, minmatar have some good missle boats too.

the hardest counter to a td ship or damp ship, is a missle boat. they almost all have very long lock ranges and are immune to td's. also, if damped or even full-out jammed, you can always load auto-targeting missles.

i suggest a lm fit kestrel. load up caldari navy mjolnir missles and let them fly. if he's lightly tanked as your experience suggests, 2-3 volleys will put him on the pod express.


Want to thank everyone for advice and feedback! Did not expect to get this much of it. However the post above is a bit sad. I don't want to train for caldari or minmatar... I like to fight for Amarr and use lasers as my primary weapon. I will probably start flying slicers when i get more isk and skills and i will definitely give coercer a go.


i understand your sentiment. i originally had an amarr char (see portrait). then i realized that amarr ships have a CRUSHING lack of midslots, and T2 minmatar ships have AMAZING EM resists. not to mention that anyone fighting you knows you will be shooting em and therm. thus, can more easily plot against it.

it's a hard pill to swallow. at least it was for me. but the sooner you get on with it the better.


Basically this, flavor of the month comes around and goes around. Right now frigate class Amarr ships are at a disadvantage, they have a dearth of midslots for e-war relatively short range weapons with relatively poor tracking and no damage type selection. They rely exclusively on armor tanks (don't have the mids to shield tank) which makes them relatively slower than other races boats too. They get a bit better as you move into larger hulls but in war you adapt or you die. Cross training into other races weapon systems and ships is a fact of life in Eve. Autocannon Punishers are pretty common you can easily find a fit on Battle clinnic they have the advantage of selectable damage type longer range, better tracking and they don't use cap. Look them up and see what I mean.
Perkin Warbeck
Higher Than Everest
#37 - 2013-04-21 06:48:57 UTC
If you want to stick with Amarr then you should try the beam coercer. They can deal a lot of damage out to 30-40kms but you will need to train T2 guns. Just burn away from your opponent to maintain range and hope that you pop them before they notice they aren't pointed.

This is assuming that your opponent is not in a light missile, double damped condor with Loki boosts and Snakes. I met one recently that did 7.1km/sec, had a 40km point and dampened your range to below 19kms. Then the only thing to do is make yourself a nice cup of tea, comment profusely on your opponents 'close' relationship with his or her family in local and then post on an OGB thread near here.

Incidentally, beam coercers are so awesome that they cannot actually die (and any killmails including one are obviously faked). Fact.
LadySansha Stark
North of the Wall
#38 - 2013-05-10 09:38:16 UTC  |  Edited by: LadySansha Stark
Mad Target wrote:
Hello everyone,

Let me start by saying i'm quite new here. I'm interested in FW and joined it yesterday. I believe Amarr need more numbers in the fight against Minmatar so i joined the golden fleets with lasers and stuff.

I tried running some novice plexes already and somehow everytime a kiting Condor would warp in and tackle me. I'm interested in fighting so I stayed the first time in my AB fit Punisher which was not fast enough and did not have the range to deal any damage. I died.
I came back with an Executioner (still AB fit, can't use MWD yet) and another kiting Condor appeared. I managed just to get out of disruptor range and warp off with my armor running low. I tried fitting beam lasers with radio ammo and still did not do much.



thanks for asking this question. i think we have the same thorn in our sides (a certain pornofan, who keeps warping into novice plexes in amarr south to pad his killboard with noob kills).

flying a dessie is really only a deterrent (and will probably just attract a different flavour of bully), but if it'll stop me bleeding punishers, i guess it's worth trying.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#39 - 2013-05-10 10:06:16 UTC
Bengal Bob
Slymsloot Enterprises
#40 - 2013-05-10 11:55:49 UTC
Mad Target wrote:
Well, I'll stick around in Amarr FW regardless. While the isk is going to be lower than say Minmatar it seems very easy to get in to fights which I like.

Learned about the warp in point in fw plexes and how to use D-scan. If i'm set to fight in short range i'll sit on the warp in point ready to tackle and shoot once I see incoming on short range D-scan. Lost a couple more frigate fights but I was actually dealing damage and not being kited to death. I just couldn't deal enough damage soon enough. But what can I expect with such low skills.

Also managed to complete a few plexes and got a bit of LP. I'll be able to buy more ships now. Also now i'm able to use MWD and fit rigs. Gives me more options.

I'm wondering how CCP is going to change missile launchers in summer. It may change the balance between them and other types of weapons.


You sir will not remain a militia scrub for long. To help you learn quicker I offer: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=233784

Swing by Arzad, or Tararan and I am sure that you will get an honourable 1v1 from an oxide pilot (if you ask first - otherwise km whoring will occur)

Welcome to FW and good luck.