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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Separation of Faction Warfare

Author
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#121 - 2013-05-08 11:57:53 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
Greggles wrote:
It seems we just have to make farming plexes by farmers harder.... Timer rollbacks and the 4-5 waves of npc rats introduced again?


Pretty much this if we can force the farmers to skill and fit there ships for pvp then its a gd step, i wish we could force them back into missions tbh but whilever theres lps in plex farmers gunna farm atleast rollbacks may force them to fight for the plex or eradicate them alltogether and make them take there iskies and buy a cheap stealth bomber toon to farm with where there doing no damage to the wz.

these steps coupled with the buff to anoms and null that are due may move some of farmers to these activitys.
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#122 - 2013-05-09 11:37:06 UTC
One of the main reasons that we didn't do the remaining work for Tier 4 was that morale was pretty heavily depleted at that point. A lot of the fresh blood into Amarr had burnt out on trying to play FW from a "save the Amarr" perspective rather than the farmville it was.

This is also why some of my blog posts may seem incomplete of skewed, since obviously blogging about how hopelessness and lack of morale isn't something you want to be writing about when you're trying to rebuild your militia. I probably have at least a hundred scrapped posts I scrapped or never published. For example, the Nulli post was only part one of 3 more posts, all equal length discussing things even more in depth. It was also around this time I realized I was spending more time writing about EVE than playing it, at which point I took a step back and decided rather than hope for mechanics we would never get, I would just play EVE and push the mechanics we had.

Anyways, around this time many of us had just discovered how profitable FW could actually be on Minmatar alts, did we store up a decent amount of Amarr LP? Yes, but we weren't stupid so rather than put all of our eggs in one basket we made sure we had Minmatar LP to offset the possibility Amarr tier 5 never happened.

Could the Amarr have gotten Tier 5 if all those people hadn't bothered plexing Minmatar and did Amarr instead? Who knows, but it doesn't even matter, because like many people have pointed out...Amarr, Caldari, Gallente, Minmatar...under Inferno, the faction you cashed out was just a name that put the ISK in your wallet. You didn't need Amarr LP to get Amarr faction BS when you could just farm another militia and convert the LP to ISK. Even then, there were so few Amarr left that cared, against the overwhelming non-farmer Minmatar, I doubt that it could have happened. Thats how bad Inferno was.

Also, we were actually planning a second Tier 4 push with Agony prior to Retribution, but the ninja patch happened so that ended up never happening. #YOLO

I do find it interesting and appreciate how post-Inferno people are more willing to be candid about their militia alts. One more thing that just shows how broken it was.

Finally, does Tier 1 suck? Yeah, it kinda does...but at the end of the day posting on the forums won't stop the Minmatar from getting all the systems, so we plex. Is ihub bashing meh at times? Sure, but even then the past few nights have been entertaining with some great anti-bomber sniper work by the Minnies and even failing to take the Asghed hub last night.

(Gals...is there anyway you could bring back Bolster to replace Cearain? He was at least an entertaining troll..)
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#123 - 2013-05-09 13:51:47 UTC
Pinky Feldman wrote:
Could the Amarr have gotten Tier 5 if all those people hadn't bothered plexing Minmatar and did Amarr instead? Who knows, but it doesn't even matter, because like many people have pointed out...Amarr, Caldari, Gallente, Minmatar...under Inferno, the faction you cashed out was just a name that put the ISK in your wallet. You didn't need Amarr LP to get Amarr faction BS when you could just farm another militia and convert the LP to ISK. Even then, there were so few Amarr left that cared, against the overwhelming non-farmer Minmatar, I doubt that it could have happened. Thats how bad Inferno was...)



Everything you said negative about inferno still applies to the new system. You can still mission or plex for a militia at tier 3 and convert your lp to isk and buy the battleship from the tier 1 militia.

Reasonable people can disagree on whether it could have happened. But I think we probably would have been able to hit tier 5. Especially with nulli to help bust the bunkers quickly. If we didn't have them, then busting the bunkers before the minmifarm came back and started plexing systems back to minmatar might have been too difficult.


Pinky Feldman wrote:

Also, we were actually planning a second Tier 4 push with Agony prior to Retribution, but the ninja patch happened so that ended up never happening. #YOLO

I do find it interesting and appreciate how post-Inferno people are more willing to be candid about their militia alts. One more thing that just shows how broken it was.


The main reasons that people rushed to have minmatar alts in inferno was because there was a legitimate sense of urgency to cash in on the huge rewards before 1) the lp value plummeted and 2) ccp reduced the ridiculous amount of pay you could get.

One reason people were more likely to have alts in the enemy camp then was due to the lp price not yet crashing. People knew that right after inferno lp could be worth 20-30kisk/lp at tier 5, but that wouldn't last long. So since minmatar seemed to be cashing in now its better to get a minmatar alt while the lp conversion is high rather than wait for amarr to get their **** together so they can cashout when the lp has dropped in value to a fraction of that.

Not only that but everyone knew making 1 billion isk per hour was broken and so everyone wanted to cash in before ccp reduced the rewards - yet another reason to get a minmatar alt in now rather wait for amarr. These were the reasons I encouraged all the amarr to get a minnie alt to do missions with. Some of course didn't have alts with the skills to do missions so they plexed.

The few unique navy ships implants and mods are not enough to really counterbalance on their own.

Now all the lp is devalued to such an extent that the incentive to have alts in the enemy is much reduced. But that has nothing to do with less cost per tier (inferno) versus increase lp per tier (currrent system).

By now the lp would have been devalued even if they kept the cashout system so the incentive to plex for the enemy would be much reduced.

Also on the flip side there would have been just as many minnie alts if they introduced the current system of pay at the inferno pay scale, from the start - before the lp value crashed.

This is no troll Pinky. Its just economics from someone who had been in militia for a while before inferno, and understood the value of lp going into the inferno changes. To all of a sudden say your lp will be worth 4xs as much of course caused a rush on the bank and everyone with a brain wanted to cash in before the value dropped.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#124 - 2013-05-10 10:59:15 UTC
So let me get this straight you post pinkys blog as the 100% fact of what happened then You get pinky slapped and told that blog was meant to be part of a set and can be a little incomplete and skewed and then you go and argue with him...... Priceless cearain totally pricless
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#125 - 2013-05-10 15:50:26 UTC
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
So let me get this straight you post pinkys blog as the 100% fact of what happened then You get pinky slapped and told that blog was meant to be part of a set and can be a little incomplete and skewed and then you go and argue with him...... Priceless cearain totally pricless



No I did not say it was 100% fact of what happened. This is what I said:

Cearain wrote:

Here is a contemporaneous blog about why we cashed out at tier 4. I dont' agree with everything he says but he does try to list all the reasons why nulli might have stopped at tier 4. And no no mention of minmatar having amarr alts flip systems is mentioned.

http://cry-moar.blogspot.com/2012/08/nullibros-and-great-tier-4-cashout.html


Feel free to read the comments as well. You wont see anyone giving your revisionist history explanation of why they stopped at tier 4.




I then posted linked a couple other sources that gave the reasons why nulli left before tier 5. And again Crosi's imagined reason does not appear.

I asked him to link a single contemporaneous writing that suggested they stopped at tir 4 due fear minmatar was going to bust all their own bunkers. He, of course, ignored that request as he always does when asked to substantiate his claims.

Do you have a link?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Ginger Barbarella
#126 - 2013-05-10 17:14:55 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Going back to the "separate" thing, if you could separate blob warfare from actual fleet warfare, that would be awesome. I'd suggest also keeping non-FWers out of plexes (no, I don't care who complains about this suggestion) for helping get it all back to FW peeveepee'ing. Blobs help eliminate GFs from those that want it, and people with no business being in a plex pissing on FW territory ENCOURAGES farming (ie, running when someone comes a knockin')... If I see a non-FWer drop on a plex while I'm plexing, I just bail and go elsewhere. No skin off my nose. If it's an opposing FWer, I'll probably fight 'em if I think it's a fair fight (OGBs not withstanding). If it's not, why bother wasting my time?


I had said that since inferno didn't make fw sov a pvp game and just gave rewards for carebearing we would end up with a different sort of player in faction war. Looking at your employment history just confirms this.


1. Thanks for looking up THIS toon. I feel all gooey inside. Oh, and as I've mentioned dozens of times before, THIS ALT isn't in FW. The guy sitting at the keyboard has multiple alts in FW, so you just invalidated your cutesy comment.

Cearain wrote:
So you don't want to waste any time pvping? Do you realize the enemy miltiia that jump in your plex are probably not there to sit on a timer, and will likely leave after the fight?


2. Reading comprehension ftw. Try re-reading what I posted if you insist on commenting on it.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#127 - 2013-05-10 18:24:59 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Going back to the "separate" thing, if you could separate blob warfare from actual fleet warfare, that would be awesome. I'd suggest also keeping non-FWers out of plexes (no, I don't care who complains about this suggestion) for helping get it all back to FW peeveepee'ing. Blobs help eliminate GFs from those that want it, and people with no business being in a plex pissing on FW territory ENCOURAGES farming (ie, running when someone comes a knockin')... If I see a non-FWer drop on a plex while I'm plexing, I just bail and go elsewhere. No skin off my nose. If it's an opposing FWer, I'll probably fight 'em if I think it's a fair fight (OGBs not withstanding). If it's not, why bother wasting my time?


I had said that since inferno didn't make fw sov a pvp game and just gave rewards for carebearing we would end up with a different sort of player in faction war. Looking at your employment history just confirms this.


1. Thanks for looking up THIS toon. I feel all gooey inside. Oh, and as I've mentioned dozens of times before, THIS ALT isn't in FW. The guy sitting at the keyboard has multiple alts in FW, so you just invalidated your cutesy comment..


I'm sure you do have multiple alts in fw. It explains allot, but I don't think that invalidates what I said at all. It might do the opposite.

Ginger Barbarella wrote:

Cearain wrote:
So you don't want to waste any time pvping? Do you realize the enemy miltiia that jump in your plex are probably not there to sit on a timer, and will likely leave after the fight?


2. Reading comprehension ftw. Try re-reading what I posted if you insist on commenting on it.


I reread what you wrote and still have the same questions.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

greg01
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
#128 - 2013-05-11 13:39:45 UTC
Thanks Alu1208. Best idea on the thread.

I hope CCP take notice of the fact that farming needs to be forced away from war zone plexing to missions.

As for my topic on separation of the factions. That sounds bollocks now. Lets just get those pesky farmers stopped from having any influence on war zone control.

Regards



Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#129 - 2013-05-11 14:18:53 UTC
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
Greggles wrote:
It seems we just have to make farming plexes by farmers harder.... Timer rollbacks and the 4-5 waves of npc rats introduced again?


Pretty much this if we can force the farmers to skill and fit there ships for pvp then its a gd step, i wish we could force them back into missions tbh but whilever theres lps in plex farmers gunna farm atleast rollbacks may force them to fight for the plex or eradicate them alltogether and make them take there iskies and buy a cheap stealth bomber toon to farm with where there doing no damage to the wz.

these steps coupled with the buff to anoms and null that are due may move some of farmers to these activitys.


Rollbacks sound great.

As far as npcs getting buffed - we had that exact system from the surprise patch October ?22? Until they finally nerfed tg npcs. I haven't looked at all the kill boards but the ones I did showed pvp was way down until the npcs were nerfed.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#130 - 2013-05-11 15:41:05 UTC
This wont effect farming as much as many may think it would. Doesn't matter one way or another though.


- killz

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ![/u]

ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#131 - 2013-05-12 17:50:55 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
Cearain wrote:
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
So let me get this straight you post pinkys blog as the 100% fact of what happened then You get pinky slapped and told that blog was meant to be part of a set and can be a little incomplete and skewed and then you go and argue with him...... Priceless cearain totally pricless



No I did not say it was 100% fact of what happened. This is what I said:

Cearain wrote:

Here is a contemporaneous blog about why we cashed out at tier 4. I dont' agree with everything he says but he does try to list all the reasons why nulli might have stopped at tier 4. And no no mention of minmatar having amarr alts flip systems is mentioned.

http://cry-moar.blogspot.com/2012/08/nullibros-and-great-tier-4-cashout.html


Feel free to read the comments as well. You wont see anyone giving your revisionist history explanation of why they stopped at tier 4.




I then posted linked a couple other sources that gave the reasons why nulli left before tier 5. And again Crosi's imagined reason does not appear.

I asked him to link a single contemporaneous writing that suggested they stopped at tir 4 due fear minmatar was going to bust all their own bunkers. He, of course, ignored that request as he always does when asked to substantiate his claims.

Do you have a link?


SOOOOOOOO if you had a plan busting bunkers to force a null bloc into cashing early would you write about the plan in a blog and warn ne other nullbears coming in that you may do it again or just leave it be and re exicute the plan when needed? Or as a nullbear would you write about being out foxed by FW scrubs as they call us at a sov game?
And because everything that happens in eve is blogged about right???
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#132 - 2013-05-12 18:01:41 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
greg01 wrote:
Thanks Alu1208. Best idea on the thread.

I hope CCP take notice of the fact that farming needs to be forced away from war zone plexing to missions.

As for my topic on separation of the factions. That sounds bollocks now. Lets just get those pesky farmers stopped from having any influence on war zone control.

Regards





Ya i like having minnie allies thats because were friendly with them and spent a year there so have well forged bonds idk why caldaris dont have same links with there allies it could be good for you guys if losing a home system call in some amarr mates to shore up the TZs.
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#133 - 2013-05-12 18:04:56 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
Cearain wrote:
I haven't looked at all the kill boards but the ones I did showed pvp was way down until the npcs were nerfed.


Npcs nerfed or other fun ship classes buffed ????? id say the rise was the latter not just cos npcs were nerfed not all fighting happens in plexes

Sorry for the 3 posts in a row been on hol and had no internet connection so had to answer stuff now Lol
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#134 - 2013-05-12 19:30:38 UTC
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I haven't looked at all the kill boards but the ones I did showed pvp was way down until the npcs were nerfed.


Npcs nerfed or other fun ship classes buffed ????? id say the rise was the latter not just cos npcs were nerfed not all fighting happens in plexes

Sorry for the 3 posts in a row been on hol and had no internet connection so had to answer stuff now Lol



That would make sense and to some extent we see a jump in pvp in non fw corps and alliances. Retribution was a great expansion with not only new ships but changes to crimewatch.

But again just sort of ad hoc looking at the killboards it seems the biggest december jump in pvp from the fw corps rather than the non fw pvp alliances. The non fw corps seemed to to take a bit longer to get the boost in pvp. See eg shadow cartel with not so great a december but a very large january and february. That seems more likely to be what we would expect as people get out and start fitting new ships.


But for fw corps the changes in plex npcs seemed to lead to an immediate increase in pvp.

But you are right we would need to get the stats on how many kills were happening in plexes before and after retribution.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815