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Tibus Heth denounces Federation; offers condolences to Republic
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Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#21 - 2013-05-09 08:45:40 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Why? Because I do not think Heth is a good guy?


No, the part where you pretend that the State unilateraly declared war on the Republic because we're such awesome allies with the Empire. Because we're such fans of Slavery. Despite being the only Faction never to make it legal - including your own.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2013-05-09 08:57:26 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Why? Because I do not think Heth is a good guy?


Because your inane rambling and haphazard arguments look not like the words of a potent leader, but more like those of a Minmatar reflections of Heth himself. Observe;

Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Go to hell, Heth. You did not just turn a good guy or the megacorps not slaver allies who previously were so, just because we have a quarrel with an ally.


Please, could you show any less tact? You were a lot easier to respect when I simply never had to see your face plastered across these boards besides such poorly articulated messages.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-05-09 09:00:38 UTC
Elsebeth, I quite agree that the man can go to hell, but Pieter's right - the Caldari have never and I hope will never practice slavery. We take that so seriously that when a slave-based Amarrian disaster management crew were permitted to work in State space in an action that saved dozens of Caldari lives, the officer who gave them permission to work was subsequently arrested and tried on slave labour charges.

Many of us, especially among independent capsuleers, have lobbied for some time for the State breaking ties with the Empire and seeking a peaceful relationship with the Tribes. We literally have no reason to be enemies that I can see beyond "the friend of my enemy is my enemy".

That attitude remains valid, I think, despite the Executor polluting it with his anti-Gallente rhetoric. It wasn't really a speech for the Matari anyway - it was just another firebrand whip-the-crowd-up thing for the benefit of the Caldari. He doesn't care about the children of Matar except as a battleground in his mad war against the Federation. He views you as a resource.

Nevertheless, even a broken clock is right twice a day, and it is possible to say the right thing for the wrong reasons. I firmly believe that the Matari and the Caldari should explore the potential for an overhaul in our relationship, and that we should start viewing one another as potential equal business partners. But our reasons for doing so need to have nothing to do with the Federation and the Empire, and everything to do with how we can benefit one another.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#24 - 2013-05-09 11:00:58 UTC
Tibus Heth wrote:
She was a peacemaker and a proponent for change.


Tibus Heth wrote:
I believe, had I the chance, we would have been fast friends.


Huh.
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#25 - 2013-05-09 11:07:31 UTC
The Caldari take their anti-slavery belief so seriously, that it was the State, not the Federation, that sent military aid to the Minmatar during their Rebellion.

I'm sure the Minmatar get the idea that the Caldari are anti-slavery, but the State has not once acted upon this belief in an interventionist fashion. This does not indicate that the belief is held strongly enough to put it higher than "respectful apathy" to the business of other nations, ie. "Not my business". One would argue if the Caldari are anti-slavery at all if the State has never taken any major political moves against it outside their own borders. Just because it is illegal in the State, doesn't mean you are unilaterally "anti-".

Guess who does hold the cause of anti-slavery to such a high regard, that they are potentially willing to go to war over it? That same group is a group that certain Minmatar are getting sick of.
Donatien Lisette
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-05-09 11:07:35 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Tibus Heth wrote:
She was a peacemaker and a proponent for change.


Tibus Heth wrote:
I believe, had I the chance, we would have been fast friends.


Huh.


Weird. Do you think she would have bought that talk?

'Hey baby, I think we should purge all Gallente together.'

I don't remember that being a part of the womans' politics...
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-05-09 11:15:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
I'm sure the Minmatar get the idea that the Caldari are anti-slavery, but the State has not once acted upon this belief in an interventionist fashion.


Well, that's a very Federal attitude. Do you not think it could possibly be that the reason we've not acted upon our anti-slavery stance in an interventionist fashion is because we view interventionism as morally repugnant?

Intervening in that manner is what the Federation did to us back in the day which is where the entire trouble between our nations came from. It's what the Amarr want to do to everyone.

We're not lazy in our opposition to slavery, we just stand by another of our principles in that we believe that the Caldari have no right to dictate how non-Caldari do business. That's not "respectful apathy" it's a strongly-held moral tenet. However much we may dislike the activities of our business partners, the only thing we have any right to do is decide how we behave.

The Amarr are slavers - we dislike that. But we have no right to tell the Empire what to do just as they have no right to tell us what to do. And so we make our opinion known and I think we should scale back our dealings with the Amarr and build bridges elsewhere. But we won't intervene with the Amarr because we do not have the right to dictate how all those people should live their lives.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
#28 - 2013-05-09 11:29:26 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Tibus Heth wrote:
She was a peacemaker and a proponent for change.


Tibus Heth wrote:
I believe, had I the chance, we would have been fast friends.


Huh.


I think those doctors that tried regrowing Midular's brain might have another patient soon; then again, it's not as if one couldn't see Heth's dementia coming from a mile away.

Stitcher wrote:
We take that so seriously that when a slave-based Amarrian disaster management crew were permitted to work in State space in an action that saved dozens of Caldari lives, the officer who gave them permission to work was subsequently arrested and tried on slave labour charges.


I can't believe someone can actually be proud of such stupidity.
  • Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim

Angels are never far...

Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-05-09 11:41:43 UTC
If you abandon a principle under duress, you never truly held it to begin with.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#30 - 2013-05-09 12:06:12 UTC
Clarification (I seem to do a lot of those lately):

I referred to 1) Heth as a not-a-good-guy, and 2) certain megacorporations having been and still being (as far as we know) slaver allies. Nothing more. If you choose to read into my words some commentary on Caldari laws on slavery, your call, but it says more of you than of my political knowledge or stance.

But since that came up, my understanding is that while Caldari are not slaveholders themselves, they are not really anti-slavery either, which shows for example when it comes to choosing allies. Their past choices in that respect have been complicit in making the position of my people much worse, and awesome at it or not, as things stand, they are an ally of the Empire and an enemy of the Republic.

And Heth can still go to hell, trying to abuse a quarrel between the Federation and the Republic to use us against each other.

Else
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-05-09 12:25:26 UTC
I entirely agree, our willingness to do business with the Amarr despite our own internal rejection of slavery is something I find shameful. We have basically nothing in common with the Amarr, and the decision to do business with them was, in my view, a foolishly mercenary one. Don't even get me started on the TCMC trade with the Khanid, I feel vicariously ashamed of that one.

What I'm saying to Seriphyn is that while my people have no right to intervene with the Amarr, we can - and I firmly believe should - cast around for other business opportunities which don't involve uncomfortably swallowing our principles for the sake of profit.

The fact is, the way to get us to stop doing business with the slavers is to make us a better offer. As it stands, the best option on the table for the Caldari bloc (in the short term at least, if we ignore the Reclaiming) is coming from the Empire. The Federation's a no-go for obvious reasons of domestic politics at the moment.

We already have megacorporate stations in the Republic, it's not like there's no precedent for peaceful, commercial contact here. But the idea needs to be bought into by both sides - if your attitude is "you've done business with the slavers, we can never do business with you", then what that means logically is that we have no option but to continue doing business with the slavers, even if we would prefer an alternative.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#32 - 2013-05-09 12:40:13 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
The Caldari take their anti-slavery belief so seriously, that it was the State, not the Federation, that sent military aid to the Minmatar during their Rebellion.

I'm sure the Minmatar get the idea that the Caldari are anti-slavery, but the State has not once acted upon this belief in an interventionist fashion. This does not indicate that the belief is held strongly enough to put it higher than "respectful apathy" to the business of other nations, ie. "Not my business". One would argue if the Caldari are anti-slavery at all if the State has never taken any major political moves against it outside their own borders. Just because it is illegal in the State, doesn't mean you are unilaterally "anti-".

Guess who does hold the cause of anti-slavery to such a high regard, that they are potentially willing to go to war over it? That same group is a group that certain Minmatar are getting sick of.


It would have been a difficult affair for the the State to "intervene" on the behalf of the Matari when the Federation was still actively prosecuting war against the Caldari people. From a purely cynical perspective I can see as to why the Federation would have supported the Minmatar rebellions, not out of a sense of idealism, but rather out of the pragmatic decision to destabilize the Empire politically and socially in order to contain the potential threat it posed.

However, I'm afraid such a notion would add a touch of historical realism to a discussion already poised to descend in typical fashion towards the depths of rose-tinted rhetoric so I shall leave it there. You would be correct though, whilst many Caldari do have strong convictions against slavery, myself included, such personal considerations should not impede what is objectively in the interests of the greater good of ones company and the State.

The Federation, Empire, and Republic were and to an extent still are open markets - nothing more. To expect the State and Caldari corporations to somehow pick sides on the basis of foreign moral and ethical perspectives is nothing short of foolishness and to think Caldari will shed our own blood out of idealism and altruism is idiocy.

Although reading this communique I do wonder when we abandoned the enlightened thoughts of Sobaseki to the nationalist demagogues on the one hand and the liberal ideologues on the other. They think they are so different, yet they seem to share the same spirit of complaining why the universe does not conform to their simplistic notions instead of accepting and working with universe as it is.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-05-09 14:03:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
You make it sound like those are the only two options - complaint or resignation.

There's also the option of taking action, you know. There's no guarantee of success of course, but it's not like the only avenues available to us are impotent whining and impotent apathy.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2013-05-09 14:42:47 UTC
You know, speaking personally and not as a Pyre pilot, I've never been a big supporter of Heth. At the same time, I used to be quite the staunch supporter of the Republic. Now, though, I think it would be a great idea if the Republic and the State become allies like this. 'Cos you know what they say about having "friends like these"...

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#35 - 2013-05-09 15:00:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
The amount of disrespect many members of the State show for their actual allies in favor of their enemies is very disappointing.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-05-09 15:05:26 UTC
Why are we allies again? Because frankly given that it's an open secret that the Caldari are among the "wayward children" the Reclaiming is aimed at, and given that your ideals and ours are basically incompatible, I often wonder just what exactly is in it for us other than that the Empire is a huge market for high-tech goods and a huge exporter of food.

Which is a perfectly good reason to conduct trade, but I wouldn't call that the basis for an alliance, not at all.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Kithrus
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#37 - 2013-05-09 15:09:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Kithrus
Samira Kernher wrote:
The amount of disrespect many members of the State show for their actual allies in favor of their enemies is very disappointing.


Well to be fair the State is allied with the Kingdom and the Kingdom has no intention of expanding which is what Stitcher is so afraid off. The Amarr and the Caldari are only default allies by extension to Kingdom and the Empire.

That said however these shifting allegiances are not for the better.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#38 - 2013-05-09 15:13:27 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Why are we allies again? Because frankly given that it's an open secret that the Caldari are among the "wayward children" the Reclaiming is aimed at, and given that your ideals and ours are basically incompatible, I often wonder just what exactly is in it for us other than that the Empire is a huge market for high-tech goods and a huge exporter of food.

Which is a perfectly good reason to conduct trade, but I wouldn't call that the basis for an alliance, not at all.


Because we each value restraint, honor, and the willingness to sacrifice the individual for the greater whole. There was once an understanding of loyalty, too, but those like yourself seem to prefer the Matari definition of the word--turning on your allies whenever they do something you don't like.
Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
#39 - 2013-05-09 15:17:49 UTC
Stitcher wrote:

Which is a perfectly good reason to conduct trade, but I wouldn't call that the basis for an alliance, not at all.


You'd call terrorism and dangerous caprice from the Republic a good basis for an alliance?

I think your time with the tribals has made you soft, Stitcher. Yeah, you like 'em. And hey, I'm sure a lot of them are good people. But they're not what is best for the State.

The Ammatar Mandate, the Khanid Kingdom and the Amarr Empire are extremely lucrative markets. Perhaps more importantly our alliance with the Amarr gives us security against the Federation, who seem to be baying for blood lately (incidentally the Federation make fantastic trade-partners, too).

Ex-Kaalakiota citizen. Ex-Hyasyoda citizen. CEO of KŌKAK, a Nugoeihuvi affiliate corporation.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-05-09 15:20:51 UTC
Kithrus... wrote:
the Kingdom has no intention of expanding which is what Stitcher is so afraid off.


Good to know. Shame about the slaves, really.

Quote:
What said however these shifting allegiances are not for the better.


I believe in meritocracy, in competition, in the economics of humanity and in the free market of ideas. Alliances are an idea, and ideas are products: if a better product comes along, I'll take my custom to that product instead.

I'm sorry if you take issue with the idea that some of us would rather buy from the Sebiestor than from the Khanid. Maybe that should inspire you to upgrade what you're selling.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders