These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Warfare & Tactics

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

So the pendulum is swinging back?

First post First post
Author
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#41 - 2013-05-08 15:09:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Stalking Mantis wrote:

Don't speak on behalf of the amarr please. You are a fair weather fan that did nothing to help the amarr aside from ***** in the forums and move your crap to egg...


I'm not even in the amarr anymore. I don't claim to speak for them and never did. I am giving my views based on the views of people I talked with when I was in the militia. Maybe their views have changed but nothing suggests that.

And its simply not true that I did nothing for amarr. I don't claim I did much after all I am just one pilot, but I did what I could to push amarr to try to plex and win - at least when I thought winning was doable without endless rabbit plexing. I also gave lp to hubs and isk to my corp to help them keep the fight going when most people abandoned amarr and amarr corps were dirt poor. A few people in amarr know this. I don't care what you believe.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Princess Nexxala
Zero Syndicate
#42 - 2013-05-08 15:29:50 UTC
Hmm, we have the highest kill to member ratio some months in the entire game...and we live in FW low sec. Means we are getting more pvp then anyone, right?

Oh wait, we only gate camp and blob so I guess that doesn't count. Blink

Cearain wrote:

That depends on how you define success. Month in and month out they don't get as much pvp as the corps that base outside of fw space.

nom nom

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#43 - 2013-05-08 15:46:17 UTC
Princess Nexxala wrote:
Hmm, we have the highest kill to member ratio some months in the entire game...and we live in FW low sec. Means we are getting more pvp then anyone, right?

Oh wait, we only gate camp and blob so I guess that doesn't count. Blink

Cearain wrote:

That depends on how you define success. Month in and month out they don't get as much pvp as the corps that base outside of fw space.



I suspect that if you tried doing that as amarr in the amarr warzone you would indeed find you need to spend allot more time defensive plexing.

Plus as far as kills per person I think that may just be a sign of not taking players that are new to pvp. (In exile. used to take players with pretty minmimal pvp experience, I don't know what qcats policy is)

Thats why I tend to look at the number of kills the top killers are getting. That tends to show what someone who knows what they are doing can get as far as pvp.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#44 - 2013-05-08 15:50:25 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Hey Nexx I have some friendly advice.

Listen to Cearain. He obviously knows more about Factional Warfare than you do.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#45 - 2013-05-08 16:32:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Cearain wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Cearain wrote:

It's pretty clear that defensive plexing a home system is a waste of time that could otherwise be spent pvping.


Wait, what? I would probaby have to do 15 carrier trips on 2 accounts and several jf runs to move out of my home system. THAT would be a waste of time. And mostly i wait until a wt tries to run an offensive plex, so i get some pvp before i run the timer.

How can you be so wrong about everything?


So you made that 900k lp from running defensive plexes that a wartarget already started running? LOL. So what is that about 40 hours a month? I think people who know what defensive plexing a system yoru enemey can not even dock in know how boring that is.

As far as the time spent moving that is correct. Thats why many pvpers move to a system they can't be kicked out of and why the station lockouts were such a pia for amarr.

Gallente have the upper hand now and given the fact that there are economic incentives for players to join the winning side I don't see that changing fast.

But its interesting how much your view changed now that you guys have the upper hand from when you didn't and you were complaining about having to constantly dplex to dock.




Look dude, you are a *****, the way you come here and mischaracterise people and what they say over and over again to fit with your delusional impression of a game you play badly and with very few friends, is a disgrace.

If i ever complained about d-plexing it was because i was a sole pilot living in murethand having to defend the system single handed with no reward as there was no LP for d-plexing at the time. There was a few things that fixed this. Firstly i moved to a proper home system. Secondly CCP gave LP for d-plexing.

Also, since i posted about that 900k lp, ive already made another 300k. Half an hour in a system is 27.5k lp from the novice and small. 5-6 hours of plexing. Does that seem like a long time for you for a week? Tbh, thats rhetorical. But i know you will reply multiple times anyway. since thats your pathological nature.
Amatsu Okami
Doomheim
#46 - 2013-05-08 16:53:26 UTC
Umm..... there's one part of the above that I'm not so sure about:

Quote:
Gallente have the upper hand now and given the fact that there are economic incentives for players to join the winning side I don't see that changing fast.


As I see it, the incentives actually work the other way. I'd make way more offensive plexing as Amarr or Caldari right now than as Gallente. The ideal scenario is actually to put up a few POSes in a system 'controlled' by the opposing faction and then to plex it up to half way each day, letting the other side deplex it back down. The deplexers will make next to nothing for their effort. You rake in the LP.

There's something fundamentally ass backwards when an 'incentive' system rewards losing.

Apart from that, I still think that we should break up the oligopolies: unhitch Matar from Gallente & Amarr from Caldari. Break up the four militias into smaller factions (Intaki, Amatar, Thukker....). And then begin to reward pvp tactical success rather than global strategic failure.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#47 - 2013-05-08 18:13:31 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Cearain wrote:

It's pretty clear that defensive plexing a home system is a waste of time that could otherwise be spent pvping.


Wait, what? I would probaby have to do 15 carrier trips on 2 accounts and several jf runs to move out of my home system. THAT would be a waste of time. And mostly i wait until a wt tries to run an offensive plex, so i get some pvp before i run the timer.

How can you be so wrong about everything?


So you made that 900k lp from running defensive plexes that a wartarget already started running? LOL. So what is that about 40 hours a month? I think people who know what defensive plexing a system yoru enemey can not even dock in know how boring that is.

As far as the time spent moving that is correct. Thats why many pvpers move to a system they can't be kicked out of and why the station lockouts were such a pia for amarr.

Gallente have the upper hand now and given the fact that there are economic incentives for players to join the winning side I don't see that changing fast.

But its interesting how much your view changed now that you guys have the upper hand from when you didn't and you were complaining about having to constantly dplex to dock.




Look dude, you are a *****, the way you come here and mischaracterise people and what they say over and over again to fit with your delusional impression of a game you play badly and with very few friends, is a disgrace..


I see you are angry and pulling the internet tough guy act with name calling and all.

You posted your imagination about what happened when amarr hit tier 4 as if it was fact, and I called you out on it. I gave plenty of evidence establishing my position and you of course couldn't find a single shred of evidence for your claim.

Now you claim I am mischaracterizing things. Ok you do admit that you were complaining about having to dplex farmers just to dock right? But now you don't. You say gallente being in a dominant position doesn't have anything to do with that. Thats fine i am not going to say thats false. But I admit I am still interested on how you will feel if the tides change and you have to pack up those 15 carriers full of stuff.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2013-05-08 18:30:03 UTC
Amatsu Okami wrote:


There's something fundamentally ass backwards when an 'incentive' system rewards losing.



If this was 0.0 you would be correct. However, this is FW which is supposed to be a forever war that nobody can ever win and just go on forever.

.

Quentin Marshall
#49 - 2013-05-08 18:44:22 UTC
Andre Vauban wrote:
Amatsu Okami wrote:


There's something fundamentally ass backwards when an 'incentive' system rewards losing.



... a forever war that nobody can ever win and just go on forever.


You mean like these threads?

Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#50 - 2013-05-08 18:53:18 UTC
Minmatar are too busy bickering and having intracorp drama to fight and influence the warzone.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#51 - 2013-05-08 19:27:38 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Cearain wrote:
But I admit I am still interested on how you will feel if the tides change and you have to pack up those 15 carriers full of stuff.

We've honestly considered this and have decided we will leave FW forever and then cry on the forums about it. The other option (which is completely unrealistic and I can understand the pain and heartache it would cause...) was as follows:
Step 1. Contract all unfit ships and mods to Black Frog and have them jump it to another system. Use time saved to run a few missions or plexes to pay for this JF service.
Step 2. Leave FW for a day.
Step 3. Move all fitted ships out either "by hand" or "via carrier" . (Edit: The other option was to just leave the fitted ships in station and use the time that would have been spent moving them to run a few missions to buy replacements.)
Step 4. Enter FW again.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#52 - 2013-05-08 19:40:59 UTC
Amatsu Okami wrote:
As I see it, the incentives actually work the other way. I'd make way more offensive plexing as Amarr or Caldari right now than as Gallente. The ideal scenario is actually to put up a few POSes in a system 'controlled' by the opposing faction and then to plex it up to half way each day, letting the other side deplex it back down. The deplexers will make next to nothing for their effort. You rake in the LP.

Actually what you do is just plex it up as much as you can. If the other side doesn't plex it down for you , then you either move on or get your other alt to deplex while it is near 100% contested it for a bit at 70%* contested rate. Just thought I would clarify how you and your alt and your other alt can have "maximum impact on the Occupancy War" every day.



Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#53 - 2013-05-08 19:42:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
But I admit I am still interested on how you will feel if the tides change and you have to pack up those 15 carriers full of stuff.

.....The other option (which is completely unrealistic and I can understand the pain and heartache it would cause...) was as follows:
Step 1. Contract all unfit ships and mods to Black Frog and have them jump it to another system. Use time saved to run a few missions or plexes to pay for this JF service.
Step 2. Leave FW for a day.
Step 3. Move all fitted ships out either "by hand" or "via carrier" .
Step 4. Enter FW again.


OK all 15 carriers worth of stuff sounds fun.

You forgot:
Step 5: get kicked out of system again and repeat steps 1-5 until the tides change again.

Or
step 5: realize your just better off basing outside of fw space so you don't have to keep repeating those steps.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#54 - 2013-05-08 19:45:07 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Cearain wrote:

OK all 15 carriers worth of stuff sounds fun.
You forgot:
Step 5: get kicked out of system again and repeat steps 1-5.
Or
step 5: realize your just better off basing outside of fw space so you don't have to keep repeating those steps.

That was the "terribly difficult" option we discarded because, well, we're lazy carebears. No, our going forward position is to simply quit FW and then whine on the forums.
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#55 - 2013-05-08 21:14:01 UTC
Cearain wrote:
As I occassionally do, I checked to see who the top daily plexers are and then check their killboards. Fweddit is starting to take the top spots. I am not sure why, but as people here are saying there seems to be some decision on their part to get alts plexing. A few said it was to prove that rabbit plexing is the best way to gain sov under these mechanics. Basically to prove fw sov is broken. I think its amazing some people still need this proof but reading the forums its clear some do. The top vp gainers for a day still usually have no kills that day.

I am finding a few fweddit guys who get some kills though. As many as 6 for the day but usually less. They usually have several others on the killmail with them. Is the amount of vp divided when a group takes a plex, or does everyone get credited with the full vp? I am assuming it is the former, and the top plexers join a fleet either before or after they get their rabbit plexing done.



I like how people conveniently post a video explaining the push back within the Amarr, and you ignore it and come up with your own silly and misinformed theory. Also, please stop arguing with X Gal, you're not going to win.

Also, to the people saying its farmers starting to switch sides, enough people know about missions now, that the only place farmers play a factor is in backwater Caldari systems, since despite being less LP/hr, its also much less effort/hr. Same reason people mine versus run Incursions for isk. I'm sure there will be a farming influx once we hit Tier 3 for the first time, and they will play a role, because any extra plex being capped matters in the net plexing numbers game, but the majority of these plex farmers will be in the Caldari/Gallente warzone in backwater systems.

I can assure you the current push coming from the Amarr is the efforts of loyalist militia members, seeing as we've been in T1 and are the leanest we've ever been now that all the complainers about how the Amarr are so disorganized have left. We're the same militia we've always been, and i've always maintained that the Amarr militia's organization is one of the best. However, its not just about the push coming from one side, its about the push coming from the other side. The slowing amount of Minmatar resistance? I can't say.

The funny thing is, if our dead weight that is now gone spent half the time plexing as it did posting on the forums they would beat Sasawong in VP, every day.

The core mechanics are here to stay boys, so enjoy them. Are they still "broken"? Honestly, I think they are, and they could be fixed as good as we'll get with a few minor tweaks, but talking about game mechanics makes me hate myself, so i'm not going to bother bringing any of that up right now.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#56 - 2013-05-08 23:33:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Pinky Feldman wrote:
Cearain wrote:
As I occassionally do, I checked to see who the top daily plexers are and then check their killboards. Fweddit is starting to take the top spots. I am not sure why, but as people here are saying there seems to be some decision on their part to get alts plexing. A few said it was to prove that rabbit plexing is the best way to gain sov under these mechanics. Basically to prove fw sov is broken. I think its amazing some people still need this proof but reading the forums its clear some do. The top vp gainers for a day still usually have no kills that day.

I am finding a few fweddit guys who get some kills though. As many as 6 for the day but usually less. They usually have several others on the killmail with them. Is the amount of vp divided when a group takes a plex, or does everyone get credited with the full vp? I am assuming it is the former, and the top plexers join a fleet either before or after they get their rabbit plexing done.



I like how people conveniently post a video explaining the push back within the Amarr, and you ignore it and come up with your own silly and misinformed theory. Also, please stop arguing with X Gal, you're not going to win.


I wasn't planning on winning an argument with XG.

This thread is not just about sahtogas.

I am also not sure what you thought I said that was misinformed. I posted the api data that shows allot of fweddit people were in the top spots for vp. Its true that does not include cross plexing, but I don't think you are saying Caldari are coming and plexing for amarr are you?

I looked at the killboards or the top plexers, and based the other things I said on that. What is misinformed?




Pinky Feldman wrote:

I can assure you the current push coming from the Amarr is the efforts of loyalist militia members, seeing as we've been in T1 and are the leanest we've ever been now that all the complainers about how the Amarr are so disorganized have left. We're the same militia we've always been, and i've always maintained that the Amarr militia's organization is one of the best. However, its not just about the push coming from one side, its about the push coming from the other side. The slowing amount of Minmatar resistance? I can't say..



I don't know who suggested it is not loyal milita doing this. I think In Exile is one of the most loyal corps amarr has (amarrian vengeance is too. Even if some there now dislike me, for some reason, I won't say they are disloyal.) And I noticed In Exile moved up to metro in mid april. Its a good move from a plexing perspective and one I had suggested when I was there. The only question is whether the pvp in the us timezone will hold up for them. It seems to be, and I hope it does.

Also I agree the problem is not so much farmers as it is rabbits.

Pinky Feldman wrote:

The funny thing is, if our dead weight that is now gone spent half the time plexing as it did posting on the forums they would beat Sasawong in VP, every day.

The core mechanics are here to stay boys, so enjoy them. Are they still "broken"? Honestly, I think they are, and they could be fixed as good as we'll get with a few minor tweaks, but talking about game mechanics makes me hate myself, so i'm not going to bother bringing any of that up right now.


I'm not interested in out-plexing sasawong. But I am glad to see amarr held out again.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#57 - 2013-05-09 11:14:41 UTC
Cearain wrote:


Even if some there now dislike me, for some reason



I believe my corpmates are burned out because of a solid month(or longer) of constantly chasing rabbits while watching friendly pilots drop from militia or switching sides when times get tough. That of course works to our advantage, since the worthless pilots are gone, and to get REAL fights you have to appear to be weaker than you are....and pilot quality is an important part of winning the fights that don't appear to be in our favor.

The siege of sahtogas wasn't as long or as brutal as I had hoped. I asked the pilots that had been taking care of the surrounding systems to stop, to let the minnies capture all but saht in our constellation. I myself moved 40bil worth of assets into system in preparation......which turned out to be a huge waste. For the most part, all they did was a frenzy of plexing while we were asleep, then run away when we mounted any decent number.

The few fights we did get, we only got because we were outnumbered at least two to one.

It's just like I told the minnies when they first started whispering about taking sahtogas, they don't have what it takes. Minmatar won't bleed for a victory, so they'll lose(or run away from) the plexes that require a sacrifice.

While the current offensive doesn't have the organization I would prefer, it's more than Amarr has had in the past. Of course, that's all one can really hope for since this militia is made of up a lot of quality yet extremely independent pilots/corps.
Akiko Mayaki
Toads of War
#58 - 2013-05-09 11:23:04 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
Cearain wrote:


Even if some there now dislike me, for some reason



I believe my corpmates are burned out because of a solid month(or longer) of constantly chasing rabbits while watching friendly pilots drop from militia or switching sides when times get tough. That of course works to our advantage, since the worthless pilots are gone, and to get REAL fights you have to appear to be weaker than you are....and pilot quality is an important part of winning the fights that don't appear to be in our favor.

The siege of sahtogas wasn't as long or as brutal as I had hoped. I asked the pilots that had been taking care of the surrounding systems to stop, to let the minnies capture all but saht in our constellation. I myself moved 40bil worth of assets into system in preparation......which turned out to be a huge waste. For the most part, all they did was a frenzy of plexing while we were asleep, then run away when we mounted any decent number.

The few fights we did get, we only got because we were outnumbered at least two to one.

It's just like I told the minnies when they first started whispering about taking sahtogas, they don't have what it takes. Minmatar won't bleed for a victory, so they'll lose(or run away from) the plexes that require a sacrifice.

While the current offensive doesn't have the organization I would prefer, it's more than Amarr has had in the past. Of course, that's all one can really hope for since this militia is made of up a lot of quality yet extremely independent pilots/corps.


Just on the siege of Sahtogas; at least as a member of the visiting Gall detachment it felt like it never really got underway.
1-3 Gall corps moved assets in fairly quickly, from then for the next 5-6 days the word was "it was on" , "no its off", "back on."

What amount of contesting Sahtogas that was achieved was done by what I would characterize as an advance force. As far as I know, WAVE didn't even arrive till a couple of days before it was for real called off. A point at which other corps still hadn't moved stuff in. And the system actually reached 15.3 or something like that at one point Blink

Not to disparage the fights in Sahtogas, they were fun, but my impression was the Minnies were looking elsewhere/not wanting to push it right then.

Bengal Bob
Slymsloot Enterprises
#59 - 2013-05-09 12:00:53 UTC
Meditril wrote:
Looks like Amarr have finally found a way to push their farming slaves back to work. Or is there any other explanation why Amarr are are gaining more and more systems back? Maybe the Minmatars have just lost their faith for freedom? What's your opinion?


It is a simple system that the Minmatar use time and again.

Push them into a few systems till they panic and plex desperately and then pull back to let them expand outwards again. This makes them excited and gives them confidence.

Everytime PVP gets slow we do this and get a fresh surge of glory mad over confident Amarr leaving moving around in open space.

It isn't just the farmers that harvest in FW P
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#60 - 2013-05-09 12:21:04 UTC
Bengal Bob wrote:
Meditril wrote:
Looks like Amarr have finally found a way to push their farming slaves back to work. Or is there any other explanation why Amarr are are gaining more and more systems back? Maybe the Minmatars have just lost their faith for freedom? What's your opinion?


It is a simple system that the Minmatar use time and again.

Push them into a few systems till they panic and plex desperately and then pull back to let them expand outwards again. This makes them excited and gives them confidence.

Everytime PVP gets slow we do this and get a fresh surge of glory mad over confident Amarr leaving moving around in open space.

It isn't just the farmers that harvest in FW P


*Cough cough* Leviathan! *Cogh cough*