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House Sarum “gearing up for next stage in Reclaiming”, aggressive warnings from Federation and Repub
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Adreena Madeveda
Sebiestor Tribe
#141 - 2013-05-04 12:26:10 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:


Bro, have you even really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?


Don't bother, mate, the guy doesn't even Rifter.

...................\o\ /o/...................
Mensha Khael Crow
House Murder
#142 - 2013-05-04 12:57:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Mensha Khael Crow
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Mensha Khael Crow wrote:
Seeking to refute anything you say mssr. Ixiris would indicate you are not a selfprofessed blowhard who counts it a victory when someone tires of your incessent lies and declines from further exchange.

That you don't have the testicular fortitude to see fault in your own deeply corrupt Empire is not my issue. Can't stand the heat? Get out of the kitchen.

Oh wait. You have slaves for that. Check if one of them's Minmatar - perhaps he can write your arguments for you. I wager he might make them more coherently than you have so far.


For a reminder to the viewing public Empyrean House Murder holds no slaves, for theological reasons, as has been repeatedly established in the IGS and Eve cluster in general.

as Before I shall thank you for establishing my case for your lack of honesty mssr. Ixiris, feel free to continue. Too complicated a sentence structure to your mind? Far be it from me to decline you the graciousness to try my best to interpret my meaning, simply. Keep lying you honorless disgrace to your own father. You are quite welcome mssr. Ixiris, alas that is all the goodwill I am willing to expend on your behalf, as there are more worthy subjects aplenty. Perhaps I can adopt a Sansha drone or something if I am ever inclined to waste my time on your ilk any further.

But, I do have to extend my apologies to those heathens I have disparaged previously in this fora. As always, consider yourselves cordially invited to prove my opinions to be mistaken. Unlike some I do admit to fallibility and perhaps those Minmatar who consider using the so called 'Day of darkness' for an excuse to violate treaties ill adviced merely escape my admittedly limited knowledge.

M.K.C.
Our righteousness is evident in the failures of the heathen, God keep us from falling prey to their weaknesses.
Ruby Amatucci
Tomorrowland Orphanage
#143 - 2013-05-04 13:07:04 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
Here lies the heart of the difference, ma'am. Your adoption of "rejection of cultural norms" was adopted in your life not because you chose it. It was adopted because of sufficient and significant long-term potentiation of structures within your hippocampus in the presence of glutamate and lack of neuron exhaustion. These memeplexes were necessarily extant in your culture, and you were exposed to them in a positive fashion, or more likely, exposed to their inverse in a negative fashion. This created an overbias in the neocortical columns associated with the memeplex leading to more frequent activation.

It may seem like quibbling over details, but I think it is important to remember that we cannot simply decide to change our beliefs - if you feel that "the time has come to change my beliefs" then that time has passed, and you are simply consciously acknowledging the change.

We are a part of our history and carriers of our cultural heritage -even those of us who reject that heritage. We are the legacy of our ancestors. This is more than poetry.

I tried explaining this to my uncle, but he just said "that is not a valid excuse to watch holo shows instead of attending the meeting like you're supposed to."

Could you write to him, maybe? I think maybe you would do a better job of convincing him.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#144 - 2013-05-04 13:43:31 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
It took Heideran VII centuries after Vak'Atioth to talk about peace and actually do his duty as an Emperor. Heideran VII was known to be a quite apathetic emperor before Aidonis rose up to power and the creation of CONCORD.

So essentially what you're saying is that Amarrians don't even talk a good game about peace unless it's inconvenient for them to do otherwise? That just backs up my position.


I am not sure to understand what brings you to believe that.

Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
Heideran's edict on outside slave raids, and his tight grip over them. Edict that finally turned more or less moot when he died.

It was being ignored and actively broken by the Imperial Navy a long time before he died.


I am not sure that I want to have that stupid debate again with one side telling that it was merely isolated incidents and the other that it was common knowledge.

In any case, neither of us were capsuleers when the man was still alive, so it is not like we really know about such things in practice.

Ava Starfire wrote:
Also, as Andreus points out, we were a prosperous, wholly peaceful and extremely advanced society when the Amarr came along; a large part of why we were so easily conquered was this very peaceful existence. We had few weapons. We did not see a need for them.


I would like to read your history books.
Celes Tenebrae
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#145 - 2013-05-04 13:47:41 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:


But I wonder who it was who made us this way... hmm.


The Sani Sabik entirely agree with you, my dear. It's ever so sobering to think what millenia of fighting against a war of extermination can do to a peoples' outlook.

I can only hope the Sarumites are foolish enough to try, and Mr Shakor sees they pay for it. It has to happen eventually.


Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#146 - 2013-05-04 14:04:30 UTC
Ruby Amatucci wrote:

I tried explaining this to my uncle, but he just said "that is not a valid excuse to watch holo shows instead of attending the meeting like you're supposed to."

Could you write to him, maybe? I think maybe you would do a better job of convincing him.

I would be very happy to, Friend Ruby! I'm not at all sure whether I would be helpful, though.
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#147 - 2013-05-04 14:29:43 UTC
Katarina Musana wrote:
Last I checked, slaves were not citizens. They were "property." That's kind of integral to the whole concept of being a slave.


And who is to say property are not citizens? Not in the Federation, of course, or the Republic, but they are held to specific laws and positions within the Empire. Thus they are citizens, just on their own position, just like Heirs and free men.

Quote:
And it's rich that you would argue that we were the kidnappers. The fact that any of our people are slaves in the first place is because your Empire kidnapped an entirely race.


Actually, we did not kidnap your entire race. We defeated you in war, your political entity ceased to exist, your population became ours. You can't kidnap what is already yours. I have agreed to say we did kidnap, but in smaller number, and after the Republic's creation.

Quote:
Your idea of compromise is allowing our people to continue to be slaves. That is not a compromise. That is giving in to the Empire's whims.


You should learn history, captain Musana. We have been freeing Minmatarr slaves continuously for years, specially after the Empress decree on the matter. So I'd say that such isn't the goal. Not even introducing theological or political reasons which you clearly wouldn't be able to understand, given the fact that you haven't understood easier arguments along this debate.

Quote:
You are the one who is incorrect. The war is not with an empire, but with the Matari. That war did not end with the fall of our empire, nor will it end until every Matari is free of the grasp of the Amarr Empire.


You can use all the words you like to say it, and you'll still be wrong, check on your books on political science and politics. War is fought among political entities: states, to put it simply. It is declared by one head of state to another, and they end with a peace treaty, or with the surrender or dissapearance of one of the sides. That war is over. Many many years ago.


Quote:
This is the only way you would have a decisive victory, by bombing us into extinction, by which point you will have wasted excessive amounts of resources with nothing left to reclaim and repurpose, leaving you weak and vulnerable. And even then, our race would live on, in those members of the Tribes not living in the Republic.

And you might want to consider how much the Federation's fleets would swell with Matari Federation Citizens ready to pounce in vengeance for their cousins in the Republic.


That is just one of many ways to handle it. Fear can do so as well, as Caldari Prime proved. You don't need to use such weaponry, only show you can and you will. People value their lives highly. As for joining the Federation fleet, for that you need training, and you need a ship that can take you there, and if we're holding space controlled enough to threaten with bombing your planets, you can be sure your Navy would have ceased to exist long before.

Quote:
Seriously, do you really think we care one bit what kind of social and economic impact it will have on the Amarr Empire when they give us back our people? For what your Empire did to us, it's more merciful than what you deserve.


Rage, so predictable, specially given into account your previous words. You should leave the debate on important matters to cooler, more reasonable, heads than yours captain. At least if you want to get somewhere. If you want to recover your people, it will have to be with our aid. Through compromise, as Commander Blake clearly exemplified. And for that you need to understand the other side of the equation as well, which clearly you don't and you're even unwilling to try.

Quote:
You think far too highly of yourselves. Our Tribe and clans have existed since long before even we took to the stars, as has our tribal unity. We learned before ever leaving Matar that we are at our strongest when we are united, and we have never forgotten that. Our unity has nothing to do with the Empire.


Right, your unity. Like the sttaion with the name. For the same time we had conquered the stars, you had visited three planets. So, your unity is quite frail, to say the best. Not even getting into discussion on power struggles inside the Republic like the Thukker tribe, or controlling the Brutor. If we weren't here, do you really think the Thukker wouldn't leave you again? Or force you to accept a Republic to their image?

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#148 - 2013-05-04 14:40:38 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Illegal trade which happens and has happened with the direct assent and assistance of the Imperial Navy for at least a decade.


Illegal trade is exactly that: illegal. If you don't have proof of the aid of the Empire, I can show you proof of the Empire's fight against it.

Quote:
Ah, the old poisoning the well trick. I'm afraid, however, that lying about my honesty is really only going to convince the same calibre of people who'll fall for your religion, so this statement really is an illustration on - what was it?


It's an illustration of what it means to be an illustration: you putting words and meanings on my mouth. That is the same as saying something I haven't, which is lying. So no well posoning here that you haven't done yourself.

Sepherim wrote:
Anyway, as for the Imperial Navy - it's in a pretty awful state. You take down the Navy's central command for a couple of hours and what do you get? Disarray. Confusion. Carriers crashing into one another - apparently your carrier bridge crews can't even practice basic collision avoidance without a higher-up holding their hand. Your Navy - the very entity dedicated to protecting your empire - couldn't protect it. It took Jamyl Sarum, a woman whose very existence was illegal by Imperial law turning up with a superweapon to turn the tide of the battle significantly enough for the Empire not to lose entire core worlds. Before that, Admiral Saracen and the 7th Fleet - one of the Imperial Navy's finest divisions - couldn't even secure the Bleak Lands without whipping the local Holders into a petulant tantrum.

Do you know the real reason the Empire is getting so friendly with the Khanid lately? It's because when the Khanid left, they took most of the Navy's best people with them, and in the intervening centuries that hasn't really changed. Notice how the colour scheme of Navy-issue ships is distinctly silver and black nowadays? You had to pull the prodigal son back in to fix your antiquated Navy, and it's not hard to tell why. The last few times we've seen major deployments of Amarrian military forces sans-superweapon they've ended in a rather abysmal failures.


The fleet that fought the "Elder Fleet" was the Domain fleet, only one among many that serve in the Empire currently. And it was able on its own to hold down the "Elder Fleet" for enough time to receive reinforcements capable of of taking the whole invading Fleet on its own. The rest of the Imperial Fleets weren't even needed or mobilized to stop the attack. As for Admiral Saracen, you know we actually succeded in our mission of expelling the Defiants, don't you?

So, we may be using Khanid innovations to boost the performance of our Navy ships, as their engineers have learned a lot from the Caldari and have improved many things the way we used to do them. But believe me, the most of the Amarrian Navy is still handled by Ni-Kunni and Amarr, and it's quite effective actually.

Quote:
Why should the Minmatar compromise with you? Literally from the first moment you encountered each other, it has always been the Amarr Empire who takes advantage of the Minmatar. You took their planets, their people, their freedom. You tried to take their culture, their customs, their history, their very identity and replace it with your own. When they refused to fall in line you took their lives. When they formed their own society, their own state, you demanded that CONCORD withhold recognition. Heideran talked a good game about peace but he still launched a war of conquest against the Jovians and when that failed and the Minmatar asserted their independence from the Empire's illegitimate control of their nation, he attempted his level best to quash the rebellion rather than grant their people the freedom they quite self-evidently desired.


That is true. But if they want a peaceful solution to this, a decree on the lines of "free all 8th generation slaves" they'll have too cooperate with that side of the Empire in order to empower it. If they don't, if they keep starting wars and adding wood to the fire, then they can't complain that the other side of the Empire calls for a new Reclaiming. It's as simple as that. You can't throw the stone and then bicker because the glass is broken.

Quote:
If the Amarrians truly desire peace, then some drastic measures will have to be taken. If it's war they desire, then fine - just try and be honest about it.


You can say many things about the Empire, but we're honest. We want peace, we free millions of Minmatarr more than have ever been freed by the freedom fighters. We want war we publicly call for a Reclaiming. So you should have no complaints on that.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#149 - 2013-05-04 14:49:24 UTC
Celes Tenebrae wrote:
Ava Starfire wrote:


But I wonder who it was who made us this way... hmm.


The Sani Sabik entirely agree with you, my dear. It's ever so sobering to think what millenia of fighting against a war of extermination can do to a peoples' outlook.

I can only hope the Sarumites are foolish enough to try, and Mr Shakor sees they pay for it. It has to happen eventually.





You speak only for yourself.


Sabik now, Sabik forever
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#150 - 2013-05-04 14:51:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Sepherim
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
This is a very common Imperial argument - to assert that the Minmatar depend on having the Amarr Empire as an enemy to survive. While this notion is fairly ridiculous to begin with, if it were true, I have to ask - whose fault is that? Who invaded the Minmatar Empire and subjected its citizens to seven hundred years of cultural abuse? Who taught them that brute force is a first response and not a last resort? Who taught them to use an external threat as a unifying factor? Who taught them the use of a redemptive concept (be it god or the spirits of the tribes) could be used to aleviate the guilt of morally reprehensible actions in service to a higher goal? Who taught them to make causes seem worth dying for -and killing for? Perhaps they weren't perfectly peaceful before the Empire found them but everything they know about violence on an interstellar scale, the Minmatar learnt from you.

If the Minmatar truly are monsters, they're monsters that you created, and this I'll grant you - Amarr are really good at that.


And that's the so common argument of the pro-republicans: anything we do and did is because the Amarr came and enslaved us. All we did is because something that happened so many years ago no one alive remembers, but it still is the core of who we are. A psychologist would recommend you to just get over it. And a historian would tell you that probably no people alive in the Minmatarr Republic (except those freed by the Empire, or the "Elder Fleet" or the few released by freedom fighters) have actually ever known slavery. Who tells them stories of the dark times of slavery? Who continues to talk about the amarr boogeyman? The Minmatarr keep us as the monsters to frighten the children at night, because they need us, elsehow they'd have moved on.

Quote:
I honestly think that's what scares Amarrians the most in the modern age. They look around at all the ghastly mistakes they're directly responsible for - Equilibrium of Man, the Blood Raiders, Sansha's Nation and perhaps, yes, the Minmatar Republic - and they realise with a shiver of terror that they can't put all these genies back in their bottles.


Actually, we can if we'd like. The Blood Raiders were expelled from amarrian lands when Omir Sarikusa stood up. The Nation hardly is our fault, as Kuvakei was not an amarrian, nor his inventions and followers often are, so you should blame yourselves for your own mistakes. The Equilibrium of Mankind is just another small sect which can be put down if we just wanted it. As for the Republic, already been discussed.

Anabella Rella wrote:
It's really difficult to hold a discussion with those like Blake or Sepherim who refuse to acknowledge objective reality so, I'll make no further attempts after this.


It's not easier to discuss with people that hold to millenia-old grudges and twist every attempt at working together as an amarrian plot, or simply deny it even if there are historical proofs. Or even deny their part in the whole affair, like the Republic never did anything wrong in history.

Quote:
Sarum's freeing of the 9th generation slaves was part cheap PR stunt designed to make it appear to the rest of the cluster as if she was being progressive and making real changes and part shrewd political maneuvering. It was a win-win situation for Sarum; she saved money by dumping several million people on our doorstep to be a strain on our social services rather than the Empire's, she won PR points with those who didn't know any better, she infiltrated our society with millions of evangelists for the Amarrian faith and if the entire operation failed she'd have been able to crow about how we were not able to care for a relatively minuscule number of those newly freed, therefore, how could we be expected to care for the billions still being held? If Sarum had been sincere she would have consulted with us beforehand and negotiated a timetable for the responsible repatriation of these individuals.


Great, so you want your people freed, but want us to ask you when and where and how? So we should free less people, in order to satisfy the Republic's need? But, none-the-less your people keep talking about freeing people even if your social services are on their limit, and the Electus Matari even guide a fleet to do so in the Mandate not so long ago. So, choose, you want your people free, or not? You can't have it both ways at the same time.

Quote:
You claim that the Elders invasion started a war. This is false. Your ancestors started this entire chain of events when you attacked and occupied our peaceful sovereign nation. You can claim that this war ended when the Minmatar Empire fell but, this is just a convenient bit of pedantry that you enjoy trotting out to deflect your responsibility. The Elders would never have had to rescue the Starkmanir and Nefantar if you slavers hadn't stolen them from their homes in the first place.


Alerady answered. You can keep denying history as much as you like, just don't say we're the ones doing it. At the very least, we're not alone in this.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#151 - 2013-05-04 14:55:29 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
As has been pointed out numerous times the Elders acted on their own with no cooperation or sanction from our government. Their attack was launched from bases deep in 0.0 space where the laws of the Republic do not extend.


The "Elder Fleet" never existed, it was just a poor excuse for the Minmatarr not to be blamed for their actions and be punished for them. Or are we really expected to believe that a fleet, following orders from no one, came out of nowhere, being built with money from noplace, attacked CONCORD, freed slaves and gave it to you... without that "no one" having anything to do with the ships, or the fact that they were Minmatarr ships? Please, I've heard better ghost stories...

[quoet]I find your revisionist history regarding the Jovians laughable. "If they didn't want to be invaded they'd have closed off their space"? They probably would have done so if they'd known more about your aggressive militarism and hubris. But, I suppose they were just "asking for it". There's nothing quite like blaming the victim, is there?[/quote]

I don't think the Joves can be called victims, can they? I would agree the Minmatarr can, but the victor hardly can be called a victim. And if they had the ressources and knowledge, and I don't doubt they did, to stop the agression and didn't, they are as much to blame as we are. We wanted a fight, they wanted a fight, both sides got it and it sent ripples through history. I doubt it was casual. But that is not revisionist history, just a working theory. You're free to disagree with it as much as you like, and unless a Jove comes into this discussion to solve it, I doubt we can reach any sort of middle ground.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Stay Feral
#152 - 2013-05-04 14:57:14 UTC
Mensha Khael Crow wrote:
as Before I shall thank you for establishing my case for your lack of honesty mssr. Ixiris, feel free to continue.

A satirical insult at your expense is not indicative of dishonesty. It just means I don't like or respect you. I'm perfectly honest about that.

Mensha Khael Crow wrote:
Too complicated a sentence structure to your mind? Far be it from me to decline you the graciousness to try my best to interpret my meaning, simply.

I warned you about sentence structure, bro!

I told you dog. I told you man. I told you about sentence structure!

Mensha Khael Crow wrote:
Keep lying you honorless disgrace to your own father.

My father is am arrogant, fraudulent, religiously and socially conservative, racketeering jackass. If my behaviour upsets him that just makes me happier, and if you were hoping to make me upset by invoking him you're barking up the wrong tree.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#153 - 2013-05-04 14:59:38 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
Also, as Andreus points out, we were a prosperous, wholly peaceful and extremely advanced society when the Amarr came along; a large part of why we were so easily conquered was this very peaceful existence. We had few weapons. We did not see a need for them.

Only after 700 years of exposure to the Amarr, of subjugation and brutality, did we become violent.

It is claimed by you howling lot of monkeys ALL THE TIME how violent we are, how terrible and amoral the Elder invasion was, and I will not deny those claims. We're violent. We're angry.

But I wonder who it was who made us this way... hmm.


I agree on all these words. We have a lot on our backs for our pasts, and will have a lot more for our future deeds. Such is the road we walk, and we accept it.

Just don't pretend you don't carry any at all. In this universe, the proverbial "****" has hit the fan a long time ago, and we're all fighting in the mud.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#154 - 2013-05-04 15:02:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Sepherim
Kithrus wrote:
Now here we are 700 years after first contact with the Matari people and the Empress for whatever reason Is pushing her house to invade. I would have hoped that after all her wisdom and power she has displayed to this point would lead her to be more creative with the reclaiming then methods we know will not help now.


Just a small note, captain Kithrus, Lord Merimeth Sarum is the Heir of the Sarum Family. The Empress no longer belongs to the Sarum family sionce she ascended to the throne and became a part of the Imperial Family. Lord Heir Merimeth Sarum is pushing this on her own, the Empress hasn't shown decision in any way yet.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#155 - 2013-05-04 15:10:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ava Starfire
"With the storm and military attacks over, the Amarr deployed six massive slave vessels to different planets in Pator, and scooped up the survivors. The colonies on Belogor, Varkal, and Kulheim were completely depopulated during this raid. On Huggar and Syld, the colonies lost over half their populations, while on Matar, the Minmatar put up a fierce resistance on the surface. However, having known no large-scale warfare for centuries, and with their infrastructure in shambles as a result of both the storm and the precision of the Amarr military strikes, they were unable to prevent the Amarr from enslaving hundreds of millions on Matar alone. "

"The Amarr first discovered the Minmatar early in 22355 AD. They were the largest civilization the Amarr Empire had thus far encountered, and the first that had settlements outside of their own system. Determining them a potential threat, the Empire spent a long time covertly assessing the Minmatar's capabilities and defenses, and, finding them sorely lacking, waited only for the proper opportunity to strike."

From here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Day_of_Darkness

Want more? Im sure I've seen others. I'll find em if you like?

Ava

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#156 - 2013-05-04 15:14:06 UTC
Though I agree with you, captain Starfire, do note that no large-scale warfare is not the same as no violence. There's a lot of difference between the two. Warfare is done between states, and since the Minmatarr Empire had already established domminance, it would have no one to wage war on unless it was a civil war or secession war. There can still be a lot of room for violence on a smaller level: bar fights, brutal rituals, assassinations for power... you name it.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#157 - 2013-05-04 15:15:06 UTC
Sepherim wrote:
Ava Starfire wrote:
Also, as Andreus points out, we were a prosperous, wholly peaceful and extremely advanced society when the Amarr came along; a large part of why we were so easily conquered was this very peaceful existence. We had few weapons. We did not see a need for them.

Only after 700 years of exposure to the Amarr, of subjugation and brutality, did we become violent.

It is claimed by you howling lot of monkeys ALL THE TIME how violent we are, how terrible and amoral the Elder invasion was, and I will not deny those claims. We're violent. We're angry.

But I wonder who it was who made us this way... hmm.


I agree on all these words. We have a lot on our backs for our pasts, and will have a lot more for our future deeds. Such is the road we walk, and we accept it.

Just don't pretend you don't carry any at all. In this universe, the proverbial "****" has hit the fan a long time ago, and we're all fighting in the mud.


Im pretty sure you did not just claim that 1 raid to rescue our kin places us in the moral miasma that the Amarr are in for 700 years of torment, abuse, kidnapping, and murder.

At least I hope you didnt.

There are degrees of "right" and "wrong". Pretty sure we'll have sunk to the Empire's level when we're carrying its people off in chains for a 700 year stint of forced cultural conversion.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#158 - 2013-05-04 15:15:57 UTC
Sepherim wrote:
Though I agree with you, captain Starfire, do note that no large-scale warfare is not the same as no violence. There's a lot of difference between the two. Warfare is done between states, and since the Minmatarr Empire had already established domminance, it would have no one to wage war on unless it was a civil war or secession war. There can still be a lot of room for violence on a smaller level: bar fights, brutal rituals, assassinations for power... you name it.


Yes.

These still do not mean we did not know an extended period of peace as a society.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#159 - 2013-05-04 15:16:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Sepherim
As I said, I agree with you, won't enter to discuss such an idea with you. Just pointing it out because it often gets equalled one to the other.

Ava Starfire wrote:

Im pretty sure you did not just claim that 1 raid to rescue our kin places us in the moral miasma that the Amarr are in for 700 years of torment, abuse, kidnapping, and murder.

At least I hope you didnt.

There are degrees of "right" and "wrong". Pretty sure we'll have sunk to the Empire's level when we're carrying its people off in chains for a 700 year stint of forced cultural conversion.


The invasion of planets through the "Elder Fleet", the Defiants invading the Bleak Lands not once but twice, continuous raids to free slaves, attacking a CONCORD station and breaking international treaties... No, captain Starfire, I don't think there are degrees of "right" or "wrong" once this scale has been achieved. If you had stolen a candy, sure, you wouldn't be as "evil" as we "are", but as it stands, with whole planetary invasions (currently happening in the Bleak Lands, by the way) you're in the dirt as much as we are.

I hope you feel it's worth it, that it's necessary, just as we do. It's a terrible path to walk elsehow.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Stay Feral
#160 - 2013-05-04 15:19:48 UTC
Kithrus wrote:
I was reading how in our past the exposure to another planet with human life shocked Amarrian religion to the core and it took decades to come to terms with the revelation.

If Amarrians as a race take that long to deal with culture shock then they probably need a new culture.

Kithrus wrote:
Now here we are 700 years after first contact with the Matari people and the Empress for whatever reason Is pushing her house to invade. I would have hoped that after all her wisdom and power she has displayed to this point would lead her to be more creative with the reclaiming then methods we know will not help now.

I want the Matari to be redeemed, I want the Federation to be redeemed, I want all to be redeemed but not like this.

Here's the thing you Imperials don't understand - and you're never going to stop causing problems for yourself until you grasp this simple fact. Everyone else in the entire universe can see it - the Minmatar have known it for eight hundred years, the Gallente have known it for as long as we've known about you and even the Caldari know it, even if some of them are too polite to acknowledge it for fear of jeapordising the tenuous alliance that exists between the State and the Empire.

It's not just the methods of the Reclaiming, it's the Reclaiming itself.

For as long as you continue to view other humans as spiritually flawed beings that require your "assistance," for as long as you continue to believe that there's something wrong with people not holding the same spiritual beliefs you do, for as long as you continue to intimate that you hold an inherent superiority to others, the Empire can never have peace, because no matter how it follows through on those beliefs, it will make enemies. I would say that abandoning the Reclaiming is not only neccessary if the Empire wants peace, it's necessary if the Empire wishes to survive, because eventually, perhaps not today, perhaps not tomorrow, perhaps not in the next thouasnd years, but someday, it will meet an enemy it cannot defeat through conversion or force of arms, and that is an experience it will not survive.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.