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Experienced Players duel baiting in starter mission system

First post First post
Author
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#21 - 2013-05-02 17:29:21 UTC
Why are you even replying to that ******?
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-05-02 20:07:51 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Why are you even replying to that ******?


Well. Won't last much longer.

Petitioned CCP to get official response from a GM here.

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Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#23 - 2013-05-02 21:48:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Minmatar Citizen160812
J'Poll wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Why are you even replying to that ******?


Well. Won't last much longer.

Petitioned CCP to get official response from a GM here.


I've seen the question asked before and they don't answer it. And what I'm talking about isn't a trick...again what is hard to understand about a duel?

Can flips, ganking, doing generally dirty tricks to newbs = bad

Getting shot while suspect flagged and passing through, throwing a duel invite out in there for some odd reason = who knows for sure
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-05-02 22:04:25 UTC
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Why are you even replying to that ******?


Well. Won't last much longer.

Petitioned CCP to get official response from a GM here.


I've seen the question asked before and they don't answer it. And what I'm talking about isn't a trick...again what is hard to understand about a duel?

Can flips, ganking, doing generally dirty tricks to newbs = bad

Getting shot while suspect flagged and passing through, throwing a duel invite out in there for some odd reason = who knows for sure


Because in general GMs don't watch forums very often.
I now asked them through a petition.

Backing out are we....

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

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Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#25 - 2013-05-03 00:29:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Minmatar Citizen160812
J'Poll wrote:
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Why are you even replying to that ******?


Well. Won't last much longer.

Petitioned CCP to get official response from a GM here.


I've seen the question asked before and they don't answer it. And what I'm talking about isn't a trick...again what is hard to understand about a duel?

Can flips, ganking, doing generally dirty tricks to newbs = bad

Getting shot while suspect flagged and passing through, throwing a duel invite out in there for some odd reason = who knows for sure


Because in general GMs don't watch forums very often.
I now asked them through a petition.

Backing out are we....



Backing out of what? I don't think using the new features in the ways I described is breaking any rules. I'd like to see them answer us, too. And maybe update the rookie system evelopedia page as well as the greifing page to cover crimewatch and duel mechanics?


I just remembered ...unless I'm mistaken those military tutorials give you a scram and web with some free frigates. What is that for exactly?
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#26 - 2013-05-03 01:02:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
There's a lack of clarity in the dueling window text that's significantly more of an issue than whether or not it's okay to duel newbies, new players aren't minors, they are typically adult men and if they want to consent to be blown the hell up in a video game then it's their choice to make.

The real problem is that the message that the duel dialogue has in it is not clear, at all, in fact it's kind of flowery and avoids mentioning very much about what accepting a duel request will actually do. It mentions limited engagements, which barely anyone knows what that actually means, it says there can't be any interference, which is flat out untrue and it doesn't contain any kind of warning about ship loss or pod killing.

It doesn't matter if newbies get blown up or where they get blown up or by who or what they get blown up. This is a game about blowing up spaceships, you lose spaceships and that isn't a bad thing. What is important is making it so that new players don't get blown up in ways that are offputting; IE under conditions where they don't know what the hell just happened because the piece of text that was meant to tell them something important was written by an idiot.

There should also be tutorial content that tells people how this crap actually works.

If atrocious game design and the NPE like this actually got fixed and you could reasonably expect a day old player to know what pressing the accept button will do then you don't need stupid rules about rookies and what the hell ever and we can get the GMs away from telling people what they are and are not allowed to do in a sandbox game and get them back to fixing stuck POS modules, reimbursing things that blew up for no reason, clearing out my giant pile of payable bills for wars against corporations that no longer exist and other stuff that matters to people who are already paying customers.
Call Rollard
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-05-03 06:30:21 UTC
Duel baiting is classed as an harassment.

Report this type of activity using the F12 -> Petition -> select as harassment -> put details in -> GM will look and give the correct punishment for the player.
Call Rollard
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-05-03 06:36:33 UTC
Call Rollard wrote:
Duel baiting is classed as an harassment.

Report this type of activity using the F12 -> Petition -> select as harassment -> put details in -> GM will look and give the correct punishment for the player.


EVE Wiki Rookie Systems Article wrote:

Warning: Attempting to trick new players in to situations where you can fire on them freely, such as can flipping them, in these systems is prohibited.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems


Basically, tricking newbies where you can fire on them freely in Rookie systems is against the rules.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-05-03 07:00:48 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD LackOfFaith
Call Rollard wrote:
Call Rollard wrote:
Duel baiting is classed as an harassment.

Report this type of activity using the F12 -> Petition -> select as harassment -> put details in -> GM will look and give the correct punishment for the player.


EVE Wiki Rookie Systems Article wrote:

Warning: Attempting to trick new players in to situations where you can fire on them freely, such as can flipping them, in these systems is prohibited.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems


Basically, tricking newbies where you can fire on them freely in Rookie systems is against the rules.


I love how EVERYBODY except Minmatar Citizen160812 sees that...

Leet PvP guys want easy targets.

Edited. Please use people's proper names, which have been changed for a reason.

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Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#30 - 2013-05-03 13:29:08 UTC
The key word there is TRICK, hun. Those mechanics are new and not a trick. Period.

Until they can patch stupid noone should have to avoid certain systems while suspect flagged because some dummy thought they could throw a point on a passing suspect and not be shot back. IF these things are breaking the rules then the rules need to be reviewed and updated....and yeah fix the stupid duel text. Telling people there can be no interference is just a lie they won't like to learn about the hard way no matter how long they've been playing.

Let's recap:

All rookie systems are dead ends? No they aren't some are smack dab in the middle of busy areas and there are many reasons to be there other than to grief the new guys. I won't even go into Arnon or however you spell the place where the sisters arc is.

Duels are a trick? It's called a duel..

Suspect shooting? That isn't bait. It's a flagged player with guns mounted not a can of goodies.



....aaaaand we wait for a senior GM to give us something other than "our rules are clear don't trick new players"...like that means anything considering the new mechanics.
Maegor Stark
State War Academy
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-05-03 13:46:10 UTC
I don't think you can call it "duel baiting".

Duel is no mysterious concept, you fight someone and you can die.

Can baiting was a **** move, especially with a container called "free ammo" or something simply because newbros couldnt know.

Duel baiting? Baiting them into what? Into thinking they can beat you? They just started thegame, why the **** would they think they are able to beat you.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-05-03 13:51:49 UTC
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
The key word there is TRICK, hun. Those mechanics are new and not a trick. Period.

Until they can patch stupid noone should have to avoid certain systems while suspect flagged because some dummy thought they could throw a point on a passing suspect and not be shot back. IF these things are breaking the rules then the rules need to be reviewed and updated....and yeah fix the stupid duel text. Telling people there can be no interference is just a lie they won't like to learn about the hard way no matter how long they've been playing.

Let's recap:

All rookie systems are dead ends? No they aren't some are smack dab in the middle of busy areas and there are many reasons to be there other than to grief the new guys. I won't even go into Arnon or however you spell the place where the sisters arc is.

Duels are a trick? It's called a duel..

Suspect shooting? That isn't bait. It's a flagged player with guns mounted not a can of goodies.



....aaaaand we wait for a senior GM to give us something other than "our rules are clear don't trick new players"...like that means anything considering the new mechanics.


Yes. Because that dual invite clearly states that the opposite party can have off grid booster and neutral reppers around him. ooh wait....Ugh

And how is sitting as suspect in a noob system with your ship that is no match for newbs just waiting for new players to shoot you not baiting.

Baiting is presenting a situation where you on forehand know that you have odds in favour of you and you hope someone doesn't spot that. Ergo, sit in a system knowing that if a new player does engage you will kill him in no time without the risk that said newbs can kill you.



You, so called leet PvP skills, don't matter if suddenly you encounter people that can fight back, so you resort to shooting helpless new players. Which CCP actually listed quite clear as being against rules.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

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J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-05-03 13:52:11 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Forum ate my double post...that's something new.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

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Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#34 - 2013-05-03 14:16:59 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
The key word there is TRICK, hun. Those mechanics are new and not a trick. Period.

Until they can patch stupid noone should have to avoid certain systems while suspect flagged because some dummy thought they could throw a point on a passing suspect and not be shot back. IF these things are breaking the rules then the rules need to be reviewed and updated....and yeah fix the stupid duel text. Telling people there can be no interference is just a lie they won't like to learn about the hard way no matter how long they've been playing.

Let's recap:

All rookie systems are dead ends? No they aren't some are smack dab in the middle of busy areas and there are many reasons to be there other than to grief the new guys. I won't even go into Arnon or however you spell the place where the sisters arc is.

Duels are a trick? It's called a duel..

Suspect shooting? That isn't bait. It's a flagged player with guns mounted not a can of goodies.



....aaaaand we wait for a senior GM to give us something other than "our rules are clear don't trick new players"...like that means anything considering the new mechanics.


Yes. Because that dual invite clearly states that the opposite party can have off grid booster and neutral reppers around him. ooh wait....Ugh

And how is sitting as suspect in a noob system with your ship that is no match for newbs just waiting for new players to shoot you not baiting.

Baiting is presenting a situation where you on forehand know that you have odds in favour of you and you hope someone doesn't spot that. Ergo, sit in a system knowing that if a new player does engage you will kill him in no time without the risk that said newbs can kill you.



You, so called leet PvP skills, don't matter if suddenly you encounter people that can fight back, so you resort to shooting helpless new players. Which CCP actually listed quite clear as being against rules.



The duel text really isn't my problem....but nowhere do I say you should be able to pull some poor guy into a safe, duel invite and then bring a bunch of dirty tricks on the field. Noone is talking about adding tricks to the system.

Sitting at the gate in Bournes or Arnon?...yeah that may be something I have to do if there is something being set up next door. The global flag isn't my problem either. I have a buttload of free killrights too...if they activate those do I shoot?


Your thing on baiting in this sense makes me think you've been hitting the sauce this mornin or that really isn't you. Did you buy that account?
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-05-03 20:09:39 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
The key word there is TRICK, hun. Those mechanics are new and not a trick. Period.

Until they can patch stupid noone should have to avoid certain systems while suspect flagged because some dummy thought they could throw a point on a passing suspect and not be shot back. IF these things are breaking the rules then the rules need to be reviewed and updated....and yeah fix the stupid duel text. Telling people there can be no interference is just a lie they won't like to learn about the hard way no matter how long they've been playing.

Let's recap:

All rookie systems are dead ends? No they aren't some are smack dab in the middle of busy areas and there are many reasons to be there other than to grief the new guys. I won't even go into Arnon or however you spell the place where the sisters arc is.

Duels are a trick? It's called a duel..

Suspect shooting? That isn't bait. It's a flagged player with guns mounted not a can of goodies.



....aaaaand we wait for a senior GM to give us something other than "our rules are clear don't trick new players"...like that means anything considering the new mechanics.


Yes. Because that dual invite clearly states that the opposite party can have off grid booster and neutral reppers around him. ooh wait....Ugh

And how is sitting as suspect in a noob system with your ship that is no match for newbs just waiting for new players to shoot you not baiting.

Baiting is presenting a situation where you on forehand know that you have odds in favour of you and you hope someone doesn't spot that. Ergo, sit in a system knowing that if a new player does engage you will kill him in no time without the risk that said newbs can kill you.



You, so called leet PvP skills, don't matter if suddenly you encounter people that can fight back, so you resort to shooting helpless new players. Which CCP actually listed quite clear as being against rules.



The duel text really isn't my problem....but nowhere do I say you should be able to pull some poor guy into a safe, duel invite and then bring a bunch of dirty tricks on the field. Noone is talking about adding tricks to the system.

Sitting at the gate in Bournes or Arnon?...yeah that may be something I have to do if there is something being set up next door. The global flag isn't my problem either. I have a buttload of free killrights too...if they activate those do I shoot?


Your thing on baiting in this sense makes me think you've been hitting the sauce this mornin or that really isn't you. Did you buy that account?


I follow all EVE rules (okay, maybe not the forum ones regarding trolling every once in a while). Unlike some here obviously.



Let me leave this here:

Quote:
v. bait·ed, bait·ing, baits
v.tr.
1. To place a lure in (a trap) or on (a fishing hook).
2. To entice, especially by trickery or strategy.
3. To set dogs upon (a chained animal, for example) for sport.
4. To attack or torment, especially with persistent insults, criticism, or ridicule.
5. To tease.
6. To feed (an animal), especially on a journey.

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Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#36 - 2013-05-03 22:13:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Minmatar Citizen160812
You can try to get the last word here with all the nonsense arguments ya want. You bothered a GM and I'm sure the ISDs and Moderators have seen this thread. Let them look at it and answer if they want about retribution mechanics used as intended in rookie systems. Other than that we have an old page with old info about can baiting and "tricks" to go on.


Here's what these new players see when they look up the latest edition being advertised:
http://www.eveonline.com/retribution/

" Q: I'm often totally oblivious to my surroundings. Will Crimewatch help me, too?

A: CONCORD wishes you the best in your endeavors."


And please tell me what kind of ship is on the dueling page under rules of engagement?


Here dig this:
http://www.eveonline.com/retribution/bounty-hunting/

I'm not the one enticing them to attack...CCP is.
Call Rollard
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-05-04 03:01:07 UTC
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
The key word there is TRICK, hun. Those mechanics are new and not a trick. Period.

Until they can patch stupid noone should have to avoid certain systems while suspect flagged because some dummy thought they could throw a point on a passing suspect and not be shot back. IF these things are breaking the rules then the rules need to be reviewed and updated....and yeah fix the stupid duel text. Telling people there can be no interference is just a lie they won't like to learn about the hard way no matter how long they've been playing.

Let's recap:

All rookie systems are dead ends? No they aren't some are smack dab in the middle of busy areas and there are many reasons to be there other than to grief the new guys. I won't even go into Arnon or however you spell the place where the sisters arc is.

Duels are a trick? It's called a duel..

Suspect shooting? That isn't bait. It's a flagged player with guns mounted not a can of goodies.



....aaaaand we wait for a senior GM to give us something other than "our rules are clear don't trick new players"...like that means anything considering the new mechanics.


If I was a newbie in EVE who played for an hour, I doubt I'd even know what a duel is. And I accept it and find myself blown up and podded I'd wonder what the hell happened. It's tricking newbies into fights in rookie systems. You can trick newbies outside the starter systems however you can not in the rookie systems.
Wolverine Stormrider
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2013-05-04 10:36:01 UTC
Call Rollard wrote:


If I was a newbie in EVE who played for an hour, I doubt I'd even know what a duel is. And I accept it and find myself blown up and podded I'd wonder what the hell happened. It's tricking newbies into fights in rookie systems. You can trick newbies outside the starter systems however you can not in the rookie systems.


Quoted for truth.

The starter systems are intended to be a 'kiddie pool' as it where before they get tossed screaming into the chum and shark filled waters. Someone sitting in a tech two frigate and duel spamming people that may have only played the game for all of 20 minutes total isn't what CCP wants.

BTW the ol' "Free Stuff" can trick has been around since beta much as I remember. Dueling just lets them not even bother with the can and maybe get a bunch more free kills.

In the mean time if you find someone duel spamming newbies, bump them away from the station, It annoys the heck out of 'em. :D
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#39 - 2013-05-04 10:40:35 UTC
HJ you are still aline on your "Argh I'm a Leet peeveepee guy, fear me noobs" idea.

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ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#40 - 2013-05-05 07:21:12 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD LackOfFaith
Quote:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

7. Use of profanity is prohibited.

The use of profanity is prohibited on the EVE Online forums. This includes the partial masking of letters using numbers or alternate symbols, and any attempts at bypassing the profanity filter.

18. New player bashing will not be tolerated.

New members of the EVE Online community are encouraged to use, but are not restricted to the EVE New Citizens Q&A forum. This forum is specifically designed to provide a platform for those who are new to the EVE community to ask questions and learn more about EVE. More experienced forum users are encouraged to participate by assisting new players with helpful and courteous responses. All flaming, trolling and posts of a derogatory nature will be deleted, and will be considered a severe breach of the forum rules.

22. Post constructively.

Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve EVE Online provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding EVE Online and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting.

26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued.


Thread cleaned up (edits and deleted posts) to conform to the above rules. The topic is fine, but please try to stay courteous and constructive.

While a GM may or may not chime in on this thread, you can still get a definitive answer to whether the newbie harassment rule applies in this case: file a petition asking about it.

As a general rule of thumb, though, if you're not sure if something is legal, don't do it until you're sure it is indeed legal. As such, I wouldn't advise duel-spamming newbies. Similarly, if you see behavior that you are not sure is legal, please petition it.

ISD LackOfFaith

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to Eve Mail or anything other than the forums.