These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Forum Index

EVE Forums » EVE Technology and Research Center » Player Features and Ideas Discussion » The Issues with the Worm.

Topic is locked indefinitely.

The Issues with the Worm.
Author

Previous Topic Next Topic

Gypsio III

Questionable Ethics.

Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork

Likes received: 1,264

#21 - 2013-05-01 10:02:27 UTC

Hakan MacTrew wrote:

This is because of how easy it is to rip another frigate apart with drones.

I like my Worm. It was the first pirate frigate I ever bought. It used to make a damn good exploration frigate, before I got into a hawk.

If you really feel that the worm needs 'fixing', then iI suggest you re-evalute your reaons why you feel it's broken. Is it the hull thats the problem, or is it another reason? (Drones are screwed, especially now with the AI changes. That is probably a much bigger problem.)

It's easier for frigates to rip drones apart. As things stand, the Dramiel has 60% of the Worm's drone DPS, which is really a bit silly. It certainly needs a drone damage/HP bonus. More CPU too. I'd also toy with a third launcher slot, or changing the missile velocity bonus to a damage/ROF one.

As for Guristas in general, well, they have a problem similar to that of Sansha - they have no "special ability", while the other pirate factions have unique abilities - neuts, webs, mobility - but Guristas and Sansha are just generic gank 'n' tank ships. I really don't know what a Guristas special theme would be though. Bonused ECM Bursts?

Secular Wisdom 1,499
Vaju Enki Secular Wisdom Likes received: 1,499	#22 - 2013-05-01 10:20:33 UTC The worm needs some balance, and fast. The Tears Must Flow

Grunnax Aurelius

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 300

#23 - 2013-05-01 10:29:40 UTC

Hakan MacTrew wrote:

The problem you have here is your trying to compare a frigate to a cruiser and a battleship. You should be comparing it to other frigates. (Maybe destroyers at a push.)

The ishkur and the merlin are the realistic combination in this circumstance. The worm recieves the 5%, (soon to be 4%,) shield resist bonus from the merlin, as well as its slot layout. It also recieves the 25mb bandwidth of the ishkur, (the same as the tristan,) and it recieves the +5m3 drone bay that the ishkur does.

The OP would give the Worm the same sort drone capacity as a curse/pilgrim. I see no logical reason to give a pirate frigate the same level of drone potential as a T2 cruiser. NO frigate recieves a damage bonus to it's drones. This is because of how easy it is to rip another frigate apart with drones.

I like my Worm. It was the first pirate frigate I ever bought. It used to make a damn good exploration frigate, before I got into a hawk.

If you really feel that the worm needs 'fixing', then iI suggest you re-evalute your reaons why you feel it's broken. Is it the hull thats the problem, or is it another reason? (Drones are screwed, especially now with the AI changes. That is probably a much bigger problem.)

The Worm was designed as a PvP Ship not to be used in Carebear applications like you do, for a PvP Ship its Tank, its DPS and fitting capability is **** for its cost.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread

To mare

Advanced Technology

Likes received: 426

#24 - 2013-05-01 10:38:50 UTC

Grunnax Aurelius wrote:

i just think a bit more fitting capability and the 125m3 / 50Mbit will bring it into its worth. Being able to take on some cruisers and most frigates.

EDIT:
If I were to buy a Worm now this is probably how I would fit it with its current layout.
-High-
x2 Rocket Launcher II
x1 free slot
-Medium-
x1 1MN Afterburner II
x1 Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
x1 Adaptive Invulnerablity Field II
x1 Medium Shield Extender II
-Low-
x1 Damage Control II
x1 Drone Damage Amplifier II
x1 Nanofiber internal Structure II
-Drones-
x5 Hobgoblin II
x5 Warrior II
-Implants-
x1 Genolution Core Augmentation CA-1
x1 Genolution Core Augmentation CA-2
x1 Inherent Implants 'Squire' Engineering EG-603
-12.9K EHP, 56.1% Stable, 1063m/sec, 45DPS Rockets (Rage) / 122 DPS Drones (Hobs)-

Now if you gave it the fitting capability and drone changes I suggested you would be able to do the following.
-High-
x2 Rocket Launcher II
x1 Small Unsable Power Fluctuator I
-Medium-
x1 1MN Afterburner II
x1 Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
x1 Adaptive Invulnerablity Field II
x1 Medium Shield Extender II
-Low-
x1 Damage Control II
x1 Drone Damage Amplifier II
x1 Nanofiber internal Structure II
-Drones-
x5 Hobgoblin II
x5 Warrior II
x5 Hornet EC-300
x5 Hammerhead II
-Implants-
x1 Genolution Core Augmentation CA-1
x1 Genolution Core Augmentation CA-2
x1 Inherent Implants 'Squire' Engineering EG-603
-12.9K EHP, 1m22s Cap, 1063m/sec, 45DPS Rockets (Rage) / 183 DPS Drones (Hobs), 292.5 DPS (Hammer) -

I think this is fair enough for a 50mil Frigate hull, mind you this change the price of it would increase a bit i think. But i think the ships drone damage bonus should only affect lights as you can see the dps on Hammerheads is a bit extreme with the bonus.

340 dps on a frig with almost no range problem would be ******* OP, a daredevil do 350dps before overload at 2km range and with no tank except for a damage control.

25mb with a 50% bonus to dmg and hp would be plenty of a boost to make the thing useable.


Vaju Enki Secular Wisdom Likes received: 1,499	#25 - 2013-05-01 10:44:12 UTC The Worm should at least recive some CPU and PG, some damage bonus on rocket/missile, and some drone HP bonus (it could then even lose some dronebay to balance, like 7/7 light drones in the dronebay). The Tears Must Flow

Grunnax Aurelius

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 300

#26 - 2013-05-01 10:45:08 UTC | Edited by: Grunnax Aurelius

To mare wrote:

Grunnax Aurelius wrote:

Im going to tell you like i told the other guy before, go back and read it properly.

Unbonused Hammerheads would be 195DPS, Bonused would be 292.5 DPS.

"i think the ships drone damage bonus should only affect lights as you can see the dps on Hammerheads is a bit extreme with the bonus."

So therefore when fighting a cruiser you will still have slightly more dps with mediums than lights.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread

To mare

Advanced Technology

Likes received: 426

#27 - 2013-05-01 10:57:26 UTC

Grunnax Aurelius wrote:

To mare wrote:

Grunnax Aurelius wrote:

you are just overcomplicating the thing, if thats your purpose give it 30mb with a 50% bonus on frigs you should use 5 lights anyway for tracking and on cruisers you can use a mix of drones for pretty much the same result

Karig'Ano Keikira

Tax Cheaters

Likes received: 85

#28 - 2013-05-01 11:10:39 UTC

keep in mind no frigate gets drone damage bonus and no frigate is capable of fielding full flight or mediums (no destroyer either); giving it 50 bandwidth would most certainly be OP, perhaps 30 as upper limit.
I agree however that it could really use something special - missile range bonus for guristas ships is kinda pathetic, perhaps something in line of +5% drone damage per level (as unique bonus that makes it different from other drone frigs); even 4% would be interesting
Drone bandwidth bonus also makes no sense as all other guristas ships automatically have max drone space for that ship class, so drone damage and resistances would streamline it bonuses wise with rest of guristas ships.
And yes, it need bit more cpu; gila can use it too

Jonas Sukarala

Deep Core Mining Inc.

Caldari State

Likes received: 309

#29 - 2013-05-01 12:01:02 UTC | Edited by: Jonas Sukarala

they should replace its missile velocity and dronebay bonus with proper drone bonuses
- drone tracking/velocity
-drone HP/damage
-25/100mb drones
All pirate frigs should have an extra slot and more EHP/speed/lower sig radius/lower mass as the bar has been raised by T1 frigs also price on these are too high really should be cheaper than bc's.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change? ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Rroff

Antagonistic Tendencies

Likes received: 1,155

#30 - 2013-05-01 14:09:04 UTC

Gypsio III wrote:

Guristas special ability if you can call it that is the missile velocity bonus.

Grunnax's fitting changes especially bumping up the CPU/PG and Shield HP are needed to (a) make it properly useful (B) bring it inline with the other guristas ships.

Unfortunatly to properly bring it inline requires an additional highslot (but not an extra launcher slot) which then takes it out of the 10 slot pattern the other pirate frigs has and doesn't address the fact that as a ship it needs the extra launcher slot more than it does the 2nd utility high. Also probably due to being partly gal the other guristas ships have almost as much structure HP as they do shield HP - its a fixed ratio so increasing shield HP would need a likewise increase in structure HP.

Shepard Wong Ogeko

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 801

#31 - 2013-05-01 19:24:24 UTC

It may be that no other frigate gets a drone damage bonus, but all other pirate frigates get a base damage bonus, and usually some skill based range/tracking bonus. The Worm only gets a base range bonus. The Cruor only gets a base damage bonus, but it gets a webbing bonus and a neut/nos bonus.

I don't think they should just give it an outright dps bonus, because while the dps of other pirate frigates is nice, it is usually the other bonuses that make pirate frigates stand out as a class. If you just want max dps out of a frigate, the assault frigs can do that with T2 resist for less isk.

Going with the Worm being slow but having a good tank, a drone velocity bonus would be nice and compliments the missile velocity bonus. So even though your Worm may not be able to get on a target as fast as other frigates it can at least reach out and hit them better than the average frigate.

Then again, the flavor claims "increased electronic warfare capabilities" but it has none. I still like the idea of extra range on tackle to go with the extra range of missiles and the ship's slow speed, and a unique bonus for such an expensive hull.

Jonas Sukarala

Deep Core Mining Inc.

Caldari State

Likes received: 309

#32 - 2013-05-01 19:37:51 UTC

Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:

Well for a droneboat its bonus is pretty useless the tristan gets drone tracking and hitpoints bonus so for the extra price you would expect a stronger bonus on the worm so the 10% drone damage/HP makes sense and follows the gurista line.
missile velocity isn't the worse bonus BUT it is a brawler with its resist bonus to therefore it needs a more damage based bonus or at least a damage application bonus and since its a droneboat why not give it a drone velocity and tracking bonus.

Grunnax Aurelius

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 300

#33 - 2013-05-02 00:15:51 UTC

The Pirate Frigates and maybe the Navy Frigates as well should receive an extra slot somewhere, because of cost, the fact they are essentially a halfway between a T2 and a T1 class ship, like the Worm, Daredevil, Succubus is supposed to be like an Assault Frigate with less Tank and more Damage, The Cruror is designed to be a Electronic Attack Ship with damage, and the Dramiel being a higher damage Interceptor.
In term of new slots added i think the following would work:
- Cruror +1 Low
- Daredevil +1 Low or Medium
- Dramiel +1 Low or Mid
- Succubus +1 Mid
- Worm +1 Mid or High
Yes, No, Maybe?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread

Gizznitt Malikite

Agony Unleashed

Agony Empire

Likes received: 4,267

#34 - 2013-05-02 01:51:24 UTC

Grunnax Aurelius wrote:

Cost is NOT a balancing factor, and making the faction frigates too potent compared to standard t1 frigates has some very detrimental effects on FW PvP.

Frankly, they usually have bonuses that make them special, and don't need "extra slots", too.

Look at the daredevil vs Atron.
Atron = 3.75 Turrets, 3x lows, 3x mids, 1 utility high.
Daredevil = 4x Turrets, 3x lows, 3x mids, 1 utility high, 50% more EHP, 10% more speed, 10% more agility, & 90% webs.
Additionally, the daredevil lands nicely between an enyo and a tarnis.

Look at the Dramiel vs Rifter
Rifter = 3.75 Turrets, 3x lows, 3x mids, 1 utility high.
Dramiel = 4x turrets, 3x lows, 4x mids, 1 utility high, 3 drones, 30% more speed, 10% more agility, & a 50% falloff bonus.
The dramiel lands nicely between a claw and a Jaguar

Now, I'll agree that the Worm could use some loving, but most faction frigates are very close to where they aught to be, and your suggestion to arbitrarily add extra slots is simply ridiculous. As evidenced by your initial idea, you have the propensity to overbuff ships to be "awesome" rather than finding an appropriate balanced recommendation!

Grunnax Aurelius

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 300

#35 - 2013-05-02 04:04:29 UTC

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Grunnax Aurelius wrote:

Yeah i see where your coming from just ignore my last post

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread

Hegemonous Conscripts 339
Super spikinator Hegemonous Conscripts Likes received: 339	#36 - 2013-05-02 04:53:42 UTC While Damage/Hit points may be a bit too much to put on a frigate what about tracking/hp and just giving it 25m3 extra drone bay? Or make it 5% damage and 10% hp or something like that. Lord knows Pirate ships make some pretty interesting reads already for what bonuses they do get.


Shepard Wong Ogeko Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic Likes received: 801	#37 - 2013-05-02 10:23:16 UTC The tracking bonus of the Tristan might actually add more in terms of applied damage without being over powered. Any one here play with the Tristan enough lately to notice if it does more damage than an unbonused flight of light drones? My only experience with tracking bonused drones are sentries using omnis.

Doomheim 2
Kapau Luelinks Doomheim Likes received: 2	#38 - 2013-05-02 11:28:19 UTC Add the guristas +drone damage bonus, leave the slots and fitting as it is, max 5 small drones. Viola, fixed. Was that that hard?

Grunnax Aurelius

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 300

#39 - 2013-05-02 11:59:31 UTC

Kapau Luelinks wrote:

Add the guristas +drone damage bonus, leave the slots and fitting as it is, max 5 small drones. Viola, fixed. Was that that hard?

It needs the increase in Powergrid and CPU aswell to be able to make use of the utility high slot, you can put a neut or anything there without gimping the fit.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread

Warcrows THE OLD SCHOOL 151
Randy Wray Warcrows THE OLD SCHOOL Likes received: 151	#40 - 2013-05-02 19:00:32 UTC 13k ehp and 300+ dps.... well the harpy has similar stats so why not Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @ http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec twitch.tv/randywray