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The Issues with the Worm.
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Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-05-01 00:07:23 UTC
Hey guys o/, as you know the Worm is pretty offten called a over expensive shield version of an Ishkur which it is.
The problem with the Worm is its gimped fitting capabilities, needs a bitmore base shield capacity, and its drone bay and bandwith in regards to its older brothers the Gila and Rattlesnake.

Here is the current Skill and Drone Layout:
Worm: 25m3 Drone Bay and 25MBit/sec Bandwith
Special Ability: 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity
Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% shield resistance per level
Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus: 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level

Gila: 400m3 Drone Bay and 125MBit/sec Bandwith
Special Ability: 50% bonus to Heavy, Heavy Assault and light Missile velocity
Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% shield resistance per level
Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level

Rattlesnake 400m3 Drone Bay and 125MBit/sec Bandwith
Special Ability: 50% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo velocity
Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% shield resistance per level
Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level

see whats happened here, now im not saying give the Worm 400m3 Drone Bay and 125MBit/sec Bandwith it would be really broken.

Here is what i propose:
Worm: 125m3 Drone Bay and 50MBit/sec Bandwith
Special Ability: 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity
Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% shield resistance per level
Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level
PG: 45MW(+10)
CPU: 175tf(+15)
Defense (Shield / Armour / Hull): 1000(+203) / 550(-32) / 550 (-73)

I feel this would actually make the Worm actually worth buying and using instead of just sitting in station collecting dust.

Any opinions on this, is it too extreme or bad idea?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#2 - 2013-05-01 00:32:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Probably make it a little over powered for a frig - I'd have thought 75/25 would be ample drone bay/bandwidth along with replacing the pointless drone bay bonus with a drone damage/hp bonus. (and obviously up the PG/CPU a little).

I flew one around on a null roam once just to say I'd done it and had to fly with empty highs to make a half decent fit work its really unloved by whoever came up with the stats for it.
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-05-01 00:36:39 UTC
Well if I'm paying 40+ mil for a hull on a frigate I'd like to have 125m3 / 50MBit for the drones, but that's just how I feel about it.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#4 - 2013-05-01 00:38:55 UTC
Yeah agree with where your coming from, just think a frig able to field a full flight of bonused medium drones is a tiny bit on the extreme side.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#5 - 2013-05-01 00:40:44 UTC
A full flight of damage bonused lights and 125m/3 on a Frig is pretty brutal, but the Worm is absolutely horrible in it's current iteration so maybe that's the push it needs to make it useable, I mean it's a 50mil frig, right now the Ishkur and hell, even the Tristan trumps it.
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-05-01 00:45:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Grunnax Aurelius
i just think a bit more fitting capability and the 125m3 / 50Mbit will bring it into its worth. Being able to take on some cruisers and most frigates.

EDIT:
If I were to buy a Worm now this is probably how I would fit it with its current layout.
-High-
x2 Rocket Launcher II
x1 free slot
-Medium-
x1 1MN Afterburner II
x1 Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
x1 Adaptive Invulnerablity Field II
x1 Medium Shield Extender II
-Low-
x1 Damage Control II
x1 Drone Damage Amplifier II
x1 Nanofiber internal Structure II
-Drones-
x5 Hobgoblin II
x5 Warrior II
-Implants-
x1 Genolution Core Augmentation CA-1
x1 Genolution Core Augmentation CA-2
x1 Inherent Implants 'Squire' Engineering EG-603
-12.9K EHP, 56.1% Stable, 1063m/sec, 45DPS Rockets (Rage) / 122 DPS Drones (Hobs)-

Now if you gave it the fitting capability and drone changes I suggested you would be able to do the following.
-High-
x2 Rocket Launcher II
x1 Small Unsable Power Fluctuator I
-Medium-
x1 1MN Afterburner II
x1 Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
x1 Adaptive Invulnerablity Field II
x1 Medium Shield Extender II
-Low-
x1 Damage Control II
x1 Drone Damage Amplifier II
x1 Nanofiber internal Structure II
-Drones-
x5 Hobgoblin II
x5 Warrior II
x5 Hornet EC-300
x5 Hammerhead II
-Implants-
x1 Genolution Core Augmentation CA-1
x1 Genolution Core Augmentation CA-2
x1 Inherent Implants 'Squire' Engineering EG-603
-12.9K EHP, 1m22s Cap, 1063m/sec, 45DPS Rockets (Rage) / 183 DPS Drones (Hobs), 292.5 DPS (Hammer) -

I think this is fair enough for a 50mil Frigate hull, mind you this change the price of it would increase a bit i think. But i think the ships drone damage bonus should only affect lights as you can see the dps on Hammerheads is a bit extreme with the bonus.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#7 - 2013-05-01 01:15:57 UTC
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Well if I'm paying 40+ mil for a hull on a frigate I'd like to have 125m3 / 50MBit for the drones, but that's just how I feel about it.


A full flight of medium drones...
+50% to drone damage & HP...

Hell no... that's simply broken & OP.

Much more reasonable:
25 mb bandwidth & 25% bonus to drone damage & HP.
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-05-01 01:20:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Grunnax Aurelius
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Well if I'm paying 40+ mil for a hull on a frigate I'd like to have 125m3 / 50MBit for the drones, but that's just how I feel about it.


A full flight of medium drones...
+50% to drone damage & HP...

Hell no... that's simply broken & OP.

Much more reasonable:
25 mb bandwidth & 25% bonus to drone damage & HP.

Read above mate please, i states damage and hp bonus would only apply to lights....
Unbonused Hammerheads would be 195DPS, Bonused would be 292.5 DPS.

"i think the ships drone damage bonus should only affect lights as you can see the dps on Hammerheads is a bit extreme with the bonus."

So therefore when fighting a cruiser you will still have slightly more dps with mediums than lights.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#9 - 2013-05-01 02:19:15 UTC
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Well if I'm paying 40+ mil for a hull on a frigate I'd like to have 125m3 / 50MBit for the drones, but that's just how I feel about it.


A full flight of medium drones...
+50% to drone damage & HP...

Hell no... that's simply broken & OP.

Much more reasonable:
25 mb bandwidth & 25% bonus to drone damage & HP.

Read above mate please, i states damage and hp bonus would only apply to lights....
Unbonused Hammerheads would be 195DPS, Bonused would be 292.5 DPS.

"i think the ships drone damage bonus should only affect lights as you can see the dps on Hammerheads is a bit extreme with the bonus."

So therefore when fighting a cruiser you will still have slightly more dps with mediums than lights.


Sorry I missed your hidden little tidbit... I glazed over our fitting section when I saw 3x fitting implants and no rigs...

As long as the bonus ONLY applies to lights, it's not too bad. Then my 3x DDA II Sentry worm would do only do 200 DPS at 45 km's, or 175 dps at 70 km's. I can't think of any fleet uses for this ship... not in gate camps, not in FW plexes...
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#10 - 2013-05-01 02:53:50 UTC
I definitely support the Worm getting more CPU; it's very tight on it. I also agree that it doesn't really shine compared to any of the AFs anymore despite it's much greater cost.

I don't however accept the idea of launching bigger drones from the Worm; a team of five very heavily bonused light drones should definitely happen, but no mediums or sentries. Keep the 50 m^3 bandwidth by default, and switch the Gallente frigate bonus to a 25% increase to drone damage and HP, with Caldari remaining the shield resist bonus.

I would also consider boosting it's base shields slightly more, as well as increasing it's shipboard DPS (Two launchers, but perhaps with new special abilities being a 75-100% bonus to rocket and light missile damage in addition to flight time perhaps). It's a pirate frigate, and as such should be both expensive, but very worth it. If not the missile based damage increase, I'd definitely advocate the addition of a fifth med slot and more CPU still, exact numbers pending.
StrongSmartSexy
Phenix Revolution
#11 - 2013-05-01 03:52:16 UTC
Aglais wrote:
I definitely support the Worm getting more CPU; it's very tight on it. I also agree that it doesn't really shine compared to any of the AFs anymore despite it's much greater cost.

I don't however accept the idea of launching bigger drones from the Worm; a team of five very heavily bonused light drones should definitely happen, but no mediums or sentries. Keep the 50 m^3 bandwidth by default, and switch the Gallente frigate bonus to a 25% increase to drone damage and HP, with Caldari remaining the shield resist bonus.

I would also consider boosting it's base shields slightly more, as well as increasing it's shipboard DPS (Two launchers, but perhaps with new special abilities being a 75-100% bonus to rocket and light missile damage in addition to flight time perhaps). It's a pirate frigate, and as such should be both expensive, but very worth it. If not the missile based damage increase, I'd definitely advocate the addition of a fifth med slot and more CPU still, exact numbers pending.

Will have to wait until Guristas pirate ships are rebalanced. Rattlesnake and Worm remain very unpopular given their low damage output (compared to other pirate equivalents) and the pathetic missile velocity bonus which isn't very useful given the distinct lack of abundant launchers on them.
Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2013-05-01 04:18:08 UTC
It needs to be able to fit blasters.

Blaster Worms are the best.
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-05-01 04:30:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Grunnax Aurelius
Ok so we have identified the following:
- Needs a bigger Drone Bay but not bigger Bandwidth
- Needs to have its Gallente Ship bonus replaced with Drone Damage and Hitpoints bonus
- Needs more Shields by either increasing base Shield Hitpoints or giving it another Mid Slot with PG and CPU to accommodate the new slot
- Needs a higher base PG and CPU
- Possibly change is Role bonus to a 25% Rate of Fire or Damage bonus to Rockets and Light Missiles

Worm:
Role Bonus: 25% Damage bonus to Rockets and Light Missiles (removed 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity)

Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% shield resistance per level
Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level

Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets , 2 launchers
Fittings: 45 PWG(+10), 175(+15) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1000(+203) / 550(-32) / 550(-73)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 350GJ / 230s(-4.38) / 1.52(+0.03)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 287msec / x3.49 / 981,000kg / 4.46s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25MBit / 75m3(+50)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 650mm / 5
Sensor strength: 15 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 40m

I think this would do the trick to bring it into the Spotlight!

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2013-05-01 04:34:49 UTC
AND BLASTERS!!!

(on serious note.. you meant Gallente
Quote:
Frigate
Bonus, c/d?)
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-05-01 04:37:34 UTC
Feligast wrote:
It needs to be able to fit blasters.

Blaster Worms are the best.


Umm... No!!! Guristas are Missiles and Drones

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Freya Kaundur
Doomheim
#16 - 2013-05-01 04:39:35 UTC
i think the problem with the worm is that you drank it.........
















its a tequila reference
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-05-01 04:53:18 UTC
Freya Kaundur wrote:
i think the problem with the worm is that you drank it.........

its a tequila reference


LoL dw i know the reference

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Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2013-05-01 05:19:39 UTC
I think the biggest problem with the Worm is that people fall for actually for trying to fit a split weapons system.

Either forget the drones, maybe just toss in some ecm or logi drones for some utility, and go with launchers and ballistic controls.

Or, do what I do, forget the high slots and pack in tank and tackle and a drone damage amp. You can pack on a T2 MSE and damage control, and with enough 5 skills you can get over 8000 ehp out of it and run cap stable with mwd, scram and web.



I do think they need to drop the drone bay bonus and just give it a fixed bay, 75m3 tops and 25Mb bandwidth. Being able to do a flight of medium drones would be awesome to the point of being too awesome, especially now that there are drone damage mods. Then either give it the drone damage bonus of the other Guristas/Gallente ships, or go with the flavor on the ship and give it some sort of e-war bonus. Maybe a range bonus to tackle, to not step on the toes of the velocity bonus of the Daredevil.
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-05-01 08:21:41 UTC
http://i1307.photobucket.com/albums/s594/grunnax/WormRe-Work_zpsbbae687f.png

Here is the Stats if you changed it.

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Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#20 - 2013-05-01 09:33:09 UTC
The problem you have here is your trying to compare a frigate to a cruiser and a battleship. You should be comparing it to other frigates. (Maybe destroyers at a push.)

The ishkur and the merlin are the realistic combination in this circumstance. The worm recieves the 5%, (soon to be 4%,) shield resist bonus from the merlin, as well as its slot layout. It also recieves the 25mb bandwidth of the ishkur, (the same as the tristan,) and it recieves the +5m3 drone bay that the ishkur does.

The OP would give the Worm the same sort drone capacity as a curse/pilgrim. I see no logical reason to give a pirate frigate the same level of drone potential as a T2 cruiser. NO frigate recieves a damage bonus to it's drones. This is because of how easy it is to rip another frigate apart with drones.

I like my Worm. It was the first pirate frigate I ever bought. It used to make a damn good exploration frigate, before I got into a hawk.

If you really feel that the worm needs 'fixing', then iI suggest you re-evalute your reaons why you feel it's broken. Is it the hull thats the problem, or is it another reason? (Drones are screwed, especially now with the AI changes. That is probably a much bigger problem.)

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