EVE General Discussion

Sure okay. However I posit that we should be trying to come up with more ways that PVP can generate wealth, such as faction warfare or fighting over moons or sov warfare etc. Yeah a lot of tedious resource gathering is balanced on the reduced supply because people aren't likely to do it, but that doesn't mean we should. So yeah, things are balanced on tedium, but we shouldn't try to balance income based on how tedious they are.

Alright, are we on the same page here? Anything I missed?

Okay, you are not making a connection. And that's okay!

Here's the thing. Ice belts are (currently) infinite, and can be mined indefinitely. That will be changing. So will moon mining, but we're also using 5b/month tech moons when the new r64s will be rarer, more spread out, and also only 3.2 bill/month, so whatevs.

Now, let's say you own a 5b/month tech moon and also have access to a highsec belt you can mine in. You get attacked by PL! They siege your tower, you form up after the reinforcement timer with 500 men, and each of those men spend a single hour fighting PL and repping the tower.

Every one of these men also spends 10 hours this month mining ice. So 5 billion ISK of wealth is generated from the tech moon, and 50 billion ISK is generated from mining ice. 55 billion ISK of wealth is generated.


Now say your group doesn't defend the tower, and PL takes it for their own coffers. Instead, all 500 men use that extra hour they would have spent protecting the tower instead mining ice, in addition to the 10 hours they would have spent mining ice normally. Now every one of those 500 people is spending 11 hours this month mining ice. And 55 billion ISK is generated from the ice made.

Either way, the same amount of ISK is made. Yes, that tower mined it over the course of a month instead of in whatever bursts of time your group chose to mine in, but you had to spend those man-hours to ensure you got to keep it.

This is literally the only point that Tippia is trying to make here.

Edit: further reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

No, it's like saying selling 10 destroyers is equal to selling a cruiser simply because of price (assuming your math actually adds up, change as necessary).

No, because that's all included in the whole “selling” part.

Both are income at the time of sale. Whether this is long or short term depends on your tactic as a trader — not on the resource itself.

And anyway, it's more like doing 500 DPS using aries compared to doing 500 DPS using ACs. Either way, you deliver 500 DPS to the target, and the difference is just a factor of what kind of total damage you intend to attain (with a slight edge of preference): the higher the HP the less the relative difference in TTK will be.

Just look at the price history charts of technetium, neodymium, etc (that's the tab right next to the "Market Data" tab in your market window if you're not a trader guy. Make sure to change the time-frame for the maximum amount (over a year) to see all the changes.). Lots of flux, due to both player manipulation and game changes.

Same for ice! (Gallente ice interdiction, upcoming ice changes, etc.)

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I definitely agree that there's some benefit to more local null industry, but there's also some value to keeping each area of space distinct and separate, or why have different areas at all? If null is completely self-sufficient then that lowers interregional interaction too much. i definitely think outposts deserve perhaps even a bit more love than they're getting in Odyssey, perhaps all outposts get perfect refine and minnie posts get a new specialty. Here's what I would do if I were masterdev for a day:

1. fix pos roles so that each person could have access to his jobs and not everyone else's, or implement personal starbases, something, so that people can do basic manufacturing in null without as much hassle, but still having to pay for it at current costs in pos fuel. I'd increase pos refining to be possibly perfect as well, at which point you might as well let the rorqual refine too, instead of just compress.

2. Move 80% of highsec manufacturing slots to lowsec, probably a lower proportion of hisec research slots to low as well. I think this makes much more sense than moving them to null, since null is wilder, player-responsible space; and also much more sense than leaving them in high-security space, which should be "safe space", not "safe and make everything space". Highsec is like a residential district, null is like the frontier, low should be the grimy docks region of the city where the lowlifes and heavy industry intermingle.

I don't live or do manufacturing in low (I'm in a c2 wh), so this isn't a personal wishlist, just what I imagine would be best for EVE. Someone else has probably already proposed this, anyway.

You're right, in a sense ... but really nullsec isn't "just" the frontier, that's w-space.

The whole idea is to actually put a sandcastle up, and keep your domain in that you can supply yourself and be "alright" out there. The problem comes in when you look at CCP's historical thinking -- stuff like "titans are so expensive, that there will only be a handful of them ever".

Outposts were "fine" when they were put in ... 25 billion to set one up, and with (relatively) low populations whereever you looked, the paradigm was "skirmish for 3 weeks, and then big damn fight once a month". These days, it's hot-drop-o-clock when someone jumps a battlecruiser into a gatecamp...

A common response. However, you will never have null "self-sufficiency" because of the regionalism of materials. You will always need hisec as a neutral industrial area where materials and components of various processes and stages thereof mix together before going back out into nullsec.

It basically comes down to an invalid slippery slope argument of: "if you move 10 more percent of industry from hisec to nullsec, why not the entire 100%"?

Of course, this is why the change is being implemented gradually, starting with the first Odyssey patch, and will continue until the desired relative levels of industry are achieved.

In the grand scheme, hisec needs its own content that suits the playstyle of more casual players that isn't just afk/multiboxing supply for the areas of space where things actually happen. Hopefully the devs are remembering that aspect of this transition and intend to fill the gaps left open from moving more nullsec content to nullsec.

You don't need any industry in highsec whatsoever to deal with the regionalism of materials, only a functional market to route things where they need to go.



...this is exactly the opposite of what I actually said.