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New scanning mechanism and its consequences

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CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#81 - 2013-04-29 17:38:45 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Having said that, it's not like you would have to test it at all. Anyone who's capable of abstract thinking and has decent understanding of tactics and game mechanics can visualise how that change would pan out.


Right, the bit that requires the investment of some effort is checking through *all* the current tactical uses of on-grid warping to check that we're not causing significant balance kinks. It's clearly not impossible, but it's also not trivial Smile

Grigori Annunaki wrote:

Since it's being changed from (at V) one 50% bonus to two 25% bonuses (which multiply to ~44%), it is actually a nerf. We're losing about 6%, though the modules will bring that back to roughly where it was originally. So, to have the same numbers, you need to use the new modules as well.


I'm still a little drained after Fanfest so I'm not 100% confident in my own memory of anything, but I'm pretty sure that we always group skill bonuses before multiplying, so you'll get the full 50% bonus here.

Karig'Ano Keikira wrote:
Not trying to sound elitist or anything, but in my experience making things more convenient is not always a good thing - most EVE mechanics are already quite simple (hard part comes in preparation, research and planning rather then combat (or scanning) act itself - not like there is much twitch-based gameplay).


I'd say that it is elitist, and also that I totally agree Smile There are some things that we want to reward people for being good at, which is often at odds with convenience. The tricky bit is figuring out *what* we want to reward people for, and what we don't. Generally we want to lean towards rewarding people for being better than their peers, rather than being better than the server code or the game content.

Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP Greyscale, This is what some players are saying: "One way I can outsmart my opponents is by putting in the time and effort to get very very good at playing a single player game against the server, better than anyone would have thought. Now you are taking that method of outsmarting my opponents away."

Be aware of this line of thinking.


I see where you're going there, but I'm on the fence over whether this counts as "outsmarting" (and I am using that word deliberately). To take an extreme example, we could introduce a mechanic where the person who can memorize the most digits of Pi always wins, and people could go and spend a long time becoming very good at memorizing Pi, and invest lots of time into it, and be the best at that mechanic... but we probably wouldn't do that because we don't feel that memorizing Pi is driving interaction between players.

Competitive mechanics that rely on essentially single-player skills are generally preferable to non-competitive mechanics, but not as good as competitive mechanics that rely on multi-player skills. Assuming zero-sum play time, the more we can remove single-player mechanics, the more time people can spend using the remaining multi-player mechanics instead.

Obviously none of this is absolute and we assess everything on a case-by-case basis, but broadly speaking, for the above reasons we're trying to slowly move away from challenge that doesn't (to any significant degree) take the actions of other players as a starting point.
pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2013-04-29 17:46:00 UTC
hey I know you CCP guys are swamped with feedback and tired from fanfest, so I'll make this short:

Many people (myself included) use a team of 2-4 accounts to multibox exploration. Please make the new loot clicking system friendly to small-scale multiboxers (ie, give us a reasonable timer per click). Otherwise lots of dudes will quit this part of gameplay which they once loved, and maybe close accounts.

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Ana Fox
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2013-04-29 17:46:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Ana Fox
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Competitive mechanics that rely on essentially single-player skills are generally preferable to non-competitive mechanics, but not as good as competitive mechanics that rely on multi-player skills. Assuming zero-sum play time, the more we can remove single-player mechanics, the more time people can spend using the remaining multi-player mechanics instead.


This sound like you are claiming that skill in doing something and being good at it,is bad thing for you surroundings cause they cant be good as you are ?

So lets nerf player unique skills to comprahend better than other in same community.
Naes Mlahrend
Devil's Horsemen
#84 - 2013-04-29 17:48:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Naes Mlahrend
I hope they reimburse my SP! Blink
Haulie Berry
#85 - 2013-04-29 18:17:36 UTC
Quote:
I'm still a little drained after Fanfest so I'm not 100% confident in my own memory of anything, but I'm pretty sure that we always group skill bonuses before multiplying, so you'll get the full 50% bonus here.


Mmm... pretty sure Weapon + weaponspec stack multiplicatively (1.25 * 1.1).
mkint
#86 - 2013-04-29 18:37:53 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
, the more we can remove single-player mechanics, the more time people can spend using the remaining multi-player mechanics instead.

What freakin' planet do you live on? Competition *is* multi-player. Dumbing down scanning removes a margin in which to compete. Nerfing the independent entrepreneur personality type will just push those people into games where what they do actually *does* matter.

EVE is getting to be a game where the individual doesn't matter. Grayscale wants it even more so. He loves you thaaat much.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Ana Fox
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2013-04-29 18:56:16 UTC
mkint wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
, the more we can remove single-player mechanics, the more time people can spend using the remaining multi-player mechanics instead.

What freakin' planet do you live on? Competition *is* multi-player. Dumbing down scanning removes a margin in which to compete. Nerfing the independent entrepreneur personality type will just push those people into games where what they do actually *does* matter.

EVE is getting to be a game where the individual doesn't matter. Grayscale wants it even more so. He loves you thaaat much.


All that while CCP Soundwave claimed on same fan fest ,that all players cant make their dreams come true,cause failing doing that is also part of game .So who is right here then? Some mechanics don't need to be mastered by all players ,but in same time some need to be simple so all can be equal.Go figure ....

I understand that making your self big shot is not achievable same like mastering scanning ,but same rule should apply for all things.If you find something tedious and not for you ,there is plenty of other things to do.
Haulie Berry
#88 - 2013-04-29 19:04:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
mkint wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
, the more we can remove single-player mechanics, the more time people can spend using the remaining multi-player mechanics instead.

What freakin' planet do you live on? Competition *is* multi-player. Dumbing down scanning removes a margin in which to compete. Nerfing the independent entrepreneur personality type will just push those people into games where what they do actually *does* matter.

EVE is getting to be a game where the individual doesn't matter. Grayscale wants it even more so. He loves you thaaat much.


Quick question: How the **** is this "dumbing down" anything, exactly?

Which aspect of the current system is more involved, more complex, or more challenging than the new system?

Is it the part where you have to click the "launch probe" button 4-7 times instead of once? Is that something you find personally taxing? Does it try the limits of your abilities?

Because I would totally believe that.
Donedy
Lulzsec Space
#89 - 2013-04-29 19:09:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Donedy
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
you're talking out your butt. Your "arsenal of skills" is a dsp probe and a guide....please...I suggest you get a new dummy guide when the update goes live.


Someone sounds like they are raging at the end of their keyboard.

Check back in this thread where I've already mentioned 2 or 3 advanced techniques when speaking with greyscale. You obviously missed that as was too busy to rage posting.

I'm not giving dummies like you even more of the advanced techniques. But if you are so great tell me the method for quickly setting up an 8 probe formation?? And tell me how to quickly scan an entire system of over 30 sigs in under 5 minutes?? Let me guess, you won't be able to because you've barely scratched the surface like I said to you before. Now go back to hunting carebears and let us intelligent people continue this discussion.


lol
Anyone who probed a bit knows your "advanced techniques".

And from what ive seen all this changes made for probing are fine.
Giving more time to play to people instead of making them waste it placing probes is a good thing.

AND YES PEOPLE, WE WILL PROBE YOU FASTER!
Ana Fox
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2013-04-29 19:12:52 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:


Quick question: How the **** is this "dumbing down" anything, exactly?

Which aspect of the current system is more involved, more complex, or more challenging than the new system?

Is it the part where you have to click the "launch probe" button 4-7 times instead of once? Is that something you find personally taxing? Does it try the limits of your abilities?

Because I would totally believe that.


When someone need to probe you down ,he need a bit of time to do that .Some player are that good in probing that with this they will scan you even faster than you think.That will give you as player less time to react and it was not nice feeling even if we dont apply this changes.
Yokai Mitsuhide
Doomheim
#91 - 2013-04-29 19:19:28 UTC
I never bother with scanning because it was needlessly time consuming for what should be a quicker task. I very much look fwd to the changes. :)
Haulie Berry
#92 - 2013-04-29 19:21:25 UTC
Ana Fox wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:


Quick question: How the **** is this "dumbing down" anything, exactly?

Which aspect of the current system is more involved, more complex, or more challenging than the new system?

Is it the part where you have to click the "launch probe" button 4-7 times instead of once? Is that something you find personally taxing? Does it try the limits of your abilities?

Because I would totally believe that.


When someone need to probe you down ,he need a bit of time to do that .Some player are that good in probing that with this they will scan you even faster than you think.


No, they won't. I'm keenly aware of what to expect out of combat probers.

Quote:
That will give you as player less time to react


Sounds fun.

Quote:
and it was not nice feeling even if we dont apply this changes.


HTFU.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#93 - 2013-04-29 19:27:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Donedy wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
you're talking out your butt. Your "arsenal of skills" is a dsp probe and a guide....please...I suggest you get a new dummy guide when the update goes live.


Someone sounds like they are raging at the end of their keyboard.

Check back in this thread where I've already mentioned 2 or 3 advanced techniques when speaking with greyscale. You obviously missed that as was too busy to rage posting.

I'm not giving dummies like you even more of the advanced techniques. But if you are so great tell me the method for quickly setting up an 8 probe formation?? And tell me how to quickly scan an entire system of over 30 sigs in under 5 minutes?? Let me guess, you won't be able to because you've barely scratched the surface like I said to you before. Now go back to hunting carebears and let us intelligent people continue this discussion.


lol
Anyone who probed a bit knows your "advanced techniques".

Ok, care to explain them then if they are so easy? :)

Love all the noobs teaching us how easy scanning is yet when I ask them basic questions none of them reply. ;)
Ana Fox
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2013-04-29 19:30:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Ana Fox
Haulie Berry wrote:
Stuff


So smug and so brave ,HTFU no problem.Sadly you are that dumb not to see it is all about HTFU.Now all players that did follow your HTFU and did some effort will not do that ,their job is even more easy.

Good example is poster above you

Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:



I never bother with scanning because it was needlessly time consuming for what should be a quicker task. I very much look fwd to the changes. :)
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
#95 - 2013-04-29 19:33:13 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

The functionality of the deep space probe should largely be replaced by the new scanner overlay doohickey, which gives you a nice visual overview of what signatures are present in system, and their *approximate* location (give or take a reasonable number of AU).


concerning DSP replacement:
-Will this new scanner show Ship Signatures as well as Cosmic ?
-Will this new scanner show signature percentages such as a deep space probe will?
-Is the range on the new scanner adjustable, up to 256 AU?



concerning probe launch, what if you only want to launch 1 probe, could you? (this is in the case that DSP probes are still of use)
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#96 - 2013-04-29 19:37:58 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Cadava Mendosa wrote:
Slight tangent.

Query about the new System scanner and it showing up "Ore" sites.. will this be the same in all space?

IE Miners in Low/Null&WH space are going to have a very hard time mining?


All existing "Gravimetric Signatures" will become "Ore Anomalies". No changes to static belts are being made apart from the ice changes.

Please reconsider this change. As someone who lives and mines in wormholes, I rely on the fact that any predators will need to put probes out to find me, thus giving me a chance to spot them on dscan and get to safety in time, in order to bring the risk/reward to acceptable levels.

By making these ore sites anomalies, a newcomer to a wormhole can track down a miner without the miner having any warning. No warning = no chance of defending themselves by getting away in time.
Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#97 - 2013-04-29 19:39:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Durzel
Ana Fox wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

You can still break probes out of the formation and manipulate them manually, which I think answers most of your questions?

The functionality of the deep space probe should largely be replaced by the new scanner overlay doohickey, which gives you a nice visual overview of what signatures are present in system, and their *approximate* location (give or take a reasonable number of AU).


I think you dont understand why players have problems with this.

First most of explorers wanted really small changes in UI ,maybe more sites to explore or better balance in terms of where some DED plexes should spawn,What you are giving us is lets make less PITA for players that had problem to go to youtube ,type "scanning eve" and get all answers .

What is even worse exploring community did sick job to make exploring competative and you needed effort to skill up ,scan fast and learn how to travel to lower sec space.

Now you gave us some so simple thing ,and on board scan that replace DSP probe that ask lvl 3 skill to train and bunch of other skills to perform better.Do you see problem there ??

Your dev team claimed on first day we dont want pandas in space,sorry to ask what is that loot pinjata breaking and running for green cookies ?? I mean come on it looks nice ,but that is so terrible idea.

Exploration and scanning are niche profession ,with not 100% I win button and that needed bunch of luck with knowing how.

Changes in scanning are making all affecting that so easy ,in game that is harsh ,ye right.For god sake you are even making player not do effort to mine better ores by scanning gravi sites.On board scan FTW.PVP scanning with preset probe formations will be hilarious.I really hope you had chance to be in situation to avoid combat probes.Do some of you people ever played this game ?I know I sound rude now,but this is really big problem.

With changes to onboard scanner and gravi sites ,tell us how you imagine players in wormholes will mine now?

What pisses me the most is ,for all ship balances we had nice sticky in features and ideas.Why that was not case about this?Why you need always to make your mind about some big as this without telling no one?Who ever was in dev team should check how CCP Fozzie and RIse communicated with community and learn how it should to be done.

Btw for end ,I hope you understand how green and red shows for colorblind people when you were choosing cookies for loot pinjata mini game.

Just FYI people made pretty much exactly the same points you've made here when probing was changed from the original system to the one we have today.

People said then it would be the end of competition in exploration, how "setting the bar so low means any noob can do it" and profits would evaporate, etc. Yet here we are, the world carried on spinning, and you're defending that "new" system now. In fact, unless you experienced the original probing/exploration system then technically you are that noob that those people who could only deal on absolutes complained about back then.

I have no doubt that a new, modified paradigm will emerge from the new system, and the same people who were able to adapt well will excel, as before.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#98 - 2013-04-29 19:39:50 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Cadava Mendosa wrote:
Slight tangent.

Query about the new System scanner and it showing up "Ore" sites.. will this be the same in all space?

IE Miners in Low/Null&WH space are going to have a very hard time mining?


All existing "Gravimetric Signatures" will become "Ore Anomalies". No changes to static belts are being made apart from the ice changes.

Please reconsider this change. As someone who lives and mines in wormholes, I rely on the fact that any predators will need to put probes out to find me, thus giving me a chance to spot them on dscan and get to safety in time, in order to bring the risk/reward to acceptable levels.

By making these ore sites anomalies, a newcomer to a wormhole can track down a miner without the miner having any warning. No warning = no chance of defending themselves by getting away in time.


Just use a venture or ship you dont care losing, either that or lock down the entire system and run a proper mining op. Now the ores are much more valuable so there is greater risk. So risk reward balance is correct.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#99 - 2013-04-29 19:43:56 UTC
There will always be selfish elitists who feel their playstyle is being threatened because it's becoming more accessible to other players. It's something similar to the "I was doing it before it was popular" syndrome.

Oh god.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#100 - 2013-04-29 19:44:30 UTC
I like how people in this thread call other people dumb and consider it "winning the argument".

I could only imagine the great Sophocles telling other Greek philosophers of the time:

"You are dumb."

"Q.E.D."

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