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[IDEA] Adjusting the training time multipliers for turret range skills
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Sparkus Volundar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-04-29 14:21:34 UTC
Hi there,

Introduction
This post concerns the following 4 skills and their training multipliers (in brackets).

Sharpshooter (2x): turret optimal bonus.
Trajectory Analysis (5x): turret falloff bonus.

Missile Projection (4x): missile speed.
Missile Bombardment (2x): missile flight time.

Summary
I suggestion that the falloff and optimal skills should to have less difference in their training time multipliers.

Detail
With missiles, the missile speed skill has a longer training time (4x) than the missile fuel skill (2x), which makes sense because it's more useful. Faster missile speeds means less delayed damage and less time for defenders or smart bombs to affect missiles.

For turrets, the optimal skill has a 2x multiplier and the falloff skill has a 5x multiplier. With turrets it’s more complicated than with missiles. Although falloff basically works 1.5-2 times and tracking up close can be bad, there is also damage reduction through falloff.

Despite tracking issues and falloff mechanics, optimal is still far more useful to laser ships than falloff. Optimal is also often more useful on hybrid ships (particularly Caldari ones) than falloff (though some hulls have falloff bonuses). For projectiles, they are more like missiles in the sense that they normally get less out of optimal than falloff (the bigger multiplier), whilst missile get less out of fuel than speed (the bigger multiplier).

In other words, 2-3 races get more out of Sharpshooter (2x) than Trajectory Analysis (5x) but it is much easier to train. Whilst for missiles, the more useful skill (for speed) is harder to train than the less useful skill (for flight time), which is a balance that seems to make more sense.

I think it’s time for the falloff and optimal skills to have less difference in their training time multipliers. I won’t go as far as to call for Sharpshooter to take longer to train than Trajectory Analysis but the current balance doesn’t seem quite right.

Regards,
Sparks

.
StoneCold
Decadence.
RAZOR Alliance
#2 - 2013-04-29 14:27:08 UTC
You also took into account that, as a turret user, you want to have both of them at least at 4 (and most likely at 5 in the long run)?

no troll.

My true stories
Luke Hammarskjold
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-04-29 14:56:08 UTC
I was thinking the exact same thing a few days ago.

+1 for the idea
Sparkus Volundar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2013-04-29 16:02:00 UTC
Thanks, Luke!

StoneCold wrote:
You also took into account that, as a turret user, you want to have both of them at least at 4 (and most likely at 5 in the long run)?

no troll.


Hi StoneCold,

Thanks for your reply. That's definately a good idea for a turet user.

The post was generally about how it takes 2.5-times longer to get to a particular level in Trajectory Analysis than it does in Sharpshooter, and how that seems a bit odd.

Regards,
Sparks

.
Luc Chastot
#5 - 2013-04-29 16:07:48 UTC
Well, as it is, it certainly favors Amarr and Caldari most.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Sparkus Volundar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-04-30 07:30:32 UTC
Indeed.

.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#7 - 2013-04-30 17:33:13 UTC
Sharpshooter: affects Railguns, Pulse lasers, and Beam lasers most.
Trajectory Analysis: affects Blasters, Autocannons, and Artillery most.

I'd say they're on pretty even ground. Why not make them both 3x and call it fair?
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-04-30 17:49:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
Goldensaver wrote:
Sharpshooter: affects Railguns, Pulse lasers, and Beam lasers most.
Trajectory Analysis: affects Blasters, Autocannons, and Artillery most.

I'd say they're on pretty even ground. Why not make them both 3x and call it fair?


actually blsters are pretty much 50-50 optimal and falloff.
and on sniping/long range weapons they have much more optimal than falloff including arties

But on a slightly differing thought they also need to fix the skill tree for turrets as astm you have to train T2 versions of the smaller class gun to progress to the next T2 gun i guess they will get to it at some point like they are changing the ship skill tree.

Also missile range skills add much more range than the turret skills do and as mentioned with turrets you don't always need to train both turret skills as one might not benefit you at all... which suggests they should reduce the bonus to missile skills down to 5% like turrets get as both of the missile skills are applied to missiles..

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#9 - 2013-04-30 17:58:00 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Sharpshooter: affects Railguns, Pulse lasers, and Beam lasers most.
Trajectory Analysis: affects Blasters, Autocannons, and Artillery most.

I'd say they're on pretty even ground. Why not make them both 3x and call it fair?


actually blsters are pretty much 50-50 optimal and falloff.
and on sniping/long range weapons they have much more optimal than falloff including arties

But on a slightly differing thought they also need to fix the skill tree for turrets as astm you have to train T2 versions of the smaller class gun to progress to the next T2 gun i guess they will get to it at some point like they are changing the ship skill tree.

Also missile range skills add much more range than the turret skills do and as mentioned with turrets you don't always need to train both turret skills as one might not benefit you at all... which suggests they should reduce the bonus to missile skills down to 5% like turrets get as both of the missile skills are applied to missiles..


Well dependant on ammo, Blasters are either 50/50, with a lean towards falloff.

Arty (in my experience) has more falloff than optimal. My Thrasher? 11km optimal, 10km falloff, but the Thrasher has a 50% bonus to optimal. My 'Nado? ~38km optimal, 70km falloff, give or take. So split, with a heavy lean towards falloff.

Rails are split decently even, with a slight lean optimal.

Beams... well, mostly optimal, but with a tiny bit of falloff, so they do gain a bit of bonus.

And I wasn't comparing to missiles. I was just arguing the relative evenness of Optimal and Falloff, as they are split pretty fairly among weapon systems.

Also, I couldn't care less that I have to train up T2 smalls to get T2 mediums, or T2 mediums for T2 large. On all of my characters, I have every intent to train every size of every weapon system, so I'm not losing anything at all, and I'd rather have it this way for turrets than the way missiles has it, because I have to train more skills into missiles to get everything T2 than I do for a single line of turrets.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-04-30 18:03:18 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Sharpshooter: affects Railguns, Pulse lasers, and Beam lasers most.
Trajectory Analysis: affects Blasters, Autocannons, and Artillery most.

I'd say they're on pretty even ground. Why not make them both 3x and call it fair?


actually blsters are pretty much 50-50 optimal and falloff.
and on sniping/long range weapons they have much more optimal than falloff including arties

But on a slightly differing thought they also need to fix the skill tree for turrets as astm you have to train T2 versions of the smaller class gun to progress to the next T2 gun i guess they will get to it at some point like they are changing the ship skill tree.

Also missile range skills add much more range than the turret skills do and as mentioned with turrets you don't always need to train both turret skills as one might not benefit you at all... which suggests they should reduce the bonus to missile skills down to 5% like turrets get as both of the missile skills are applied to missiles..


Well dependant on ammo, Blasters are either 50/50, with a lean towards falloff.

Arty (in my experience) has more falloff than optimal. My Thrasher? 11km optimal, 10km falloff, but the Thrasher has a 50% bonus to optimal. My 'Nado? ~38km optimal, 70km falloff, give or take. So split, with a heavy lean towards falloff.

Rails are split decently even, with a slight lean optimal.

Beams... well, mostly optimal, but with a tiny bit of falloff, so they do gain a bit of bonus.

And I wasn't comparing to missiles. I was just arguing the relative evenness of Optimal and Falloff, as they are split pretty fairly among weapon systems.

Also, I couldn't care less that I have to train up T2 smalls to get T2 mediums, or T2 mediums for T2 large. On all of my characters, I have every intent to train every size of every weapon system, so I'm not losing anything at all, and I'd rather have it this way for turrets than the way missiles has it, because I have to train more skills into missiles to get everything T2 than I do for a single line of turrets.


well the tornado has a falloff bonus so i guess it would be more even... but hey ho...
The thing with the T2 guns though is if you want to fly only a certain class say a vaga you have to train T2 small.. maybe not so bad if you're a minnie piot but say you are cross training then it becomes annoying... and atm having to train AF's for HAC's must get really annoying.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#11 - 2013-04-30 18:15:36 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:

well the tornado has a falloff bonus so i guess it would be more even... but hey ho...
The thing with the T2 guns though is if you want to fly only a certain class say a vaga you have to train T2 small.. maybe not so bad if you're a minnie piot but say you are cross training then it becomes annoying... and atm having to train AF's for HAC's must get really annoying.


Wow, didn't even know the Tornado had a falloff bonus. I only remembered the important one, the damage bonus. I guess you really do learn something new every day.

And yes, I can definitely agree that it's a pain in the ass if you're crosstraining for only one thing in particular, but it doesn't hurt at all to have trained up small guns for any race, or most medium guns for any race *cough looking at you medium rails/beams cough*. If nothing else you get access to a nice, shiny new T1 frigate/destroyer with their racial weapon system, so I don't see it being all that bad. It just slows things down if you want one in particular. Makes you really think about what you're doing, rather than rushing in. Also, if you decide to use the weapon system, it'll give you a chance before your training is complete to get some practice in with the smaller versions and get a feel for them if you haven't used them before.