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New scanning mechanism and its consequences

First post
Author
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
#1 - 2013-04-29 08:24:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Hello folks,

so the new scan mechanisms coming with odyssey will give us

a) new scanning mechanisms like presets of probe-positions
b) new modules for your ship to increase the scan-range, scan-time etc. (adding to the old scanskills)

What are the consequences of this changes?
1.) easier access for casual scanning pilots
2.) a big decrease of the time you need to scan something (or someone) for experienced pilots

So, 1.) is a good thing. Especially for not so experienced pilots the old scanning was horrible. Easier access is good, especially if you want new pilots to expierence the new exploration sites easily.

But 2.) gives me and my corpmates some headaches. We live in a wormhole, and scanning down enemy pilots is an important part in our daily life. Also our enemies are scanning us down often, at least they try.
I dont now what the timeframe for scanning someone down with combat probes is, but i think it will be a lot quicker with the changes. Maybe too quick. Maybe you guys can give me some numbers on that.

Update 30.04.:

Which of the new changes in Oddyssey are increasing the speed of scanning?
a) an additional probe (now 8 probes launchable at the same time)
b) Button to deploy all probes at once
c) Probe-Formation-Presets (optional, you can still position the probes yourself)
d) UI changes in general so you can scan faster
e) new scan-modules which buff your scanspeed and efficiency
f) scanning skills are buffed (Example:
Current: Astrometrics L5 + Astrometric Aquisition L4 = 40% reduction in scan time.
After: Astrometrics L5 + Astrometric Aquisition L4 = 45% reduction in scan time.)

Additional Informations:
- No more deep space probes (CCP Greyscale: "The functionality of the deep space probe should largely be replaced by the new scanner overlay doohickey, which gives you a nice visual overview of what signatures are present in system, and their *approximate* location (give or take a reasonable number of AU)."
- Probe-Formation-Presets: CCP Greyscale: "There's two presets in Odyssey currently: one is seven arranged in a plane, for doing an initial sweep over as much of the system as possible, while the other is a gunstar for pinpointing individual signatures."

Also within the first 10 pages of this thread: Huge load of ideas how to change scanning completly, also solutions how to fix the problems with the big increase in scanning time.

TL;DR: Scanning ships down might be too quick now.

What do you think Question


o7
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#2 - 2013-04-29 08:27:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
The "new-old" system was created to make things easier for the casual player. The new additions just make scanning a bit too simplistic imo. I wouldn't go as far as to say dumbing down but it's close.

Edit: If you think the current system is horrid you should have seen the old one. Ofc the fact it was a PITA did make it quite profitable.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
#3 - 2013-04-29 08:28:59 UTC
I thought about giving the new scanning-modules only bonusses to core scanner probes, not the combat probes.
This could solve the problem i see with this new changes.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#4 - 2013-04-29 08:30:30 UTC
Skills associated with scanning are being nerfed to compensate for the new modules.
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
#5 - 2013-04-29 08:31:57 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Skills associated with scanning are being nerfed to compensate for the new modules.


Can you give me a source on that? i hear the first time of this.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#6 - 2013-04-29 08:37:52 UTC
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#7 - 2013-04-29 08:39:09 UTC
We elite wormhole types with our unmatched scanning skills will still be at the top of the pile, even if the drooling braindeads like ice miners are capable of the most basic scanning activities now
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
#8 - 2013-04-29 08:40:20 UTC
Thank you. But the changes are still unconfirmed. If they are doing this, i think it will be okay. :)
Masuka Taredi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2013-04-29 09:32:29 UTC
I'm still waiting to see things in action more. Hopefully they will strike a good compromise between accessibility and time taken to scan a signature down. I get your possible concerns though OP.
Akinesis
CRIMSON ASSAULT
#10 - 2013-04-29 09:40:43 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Skills associated with scanning are being nerfed to compensate for the new modules.


I read this a lot. Scan skills are not being nerfed. The bonuses of the support skills are just getting balanced with the Astromentrics skill. It makes a lot more sense and, depending on your level of skills, will buff the individuals current scanning level (until all skills are trained to the same level). I think people are overlooking that the lost 5% of the support skills are being moved to the Astrometrics skill.

For instance (in my case):

Current:
Astrometrics L5 + Astrometric Aquisition L4 = 40% reduction in scan time.

After:
Astrometrics L5 + Astrometric Aquisition L4 = 45% reduction in scan time.

I think the new change is a good thing. And the new modules will add further enhancement. They're not compensating for any loss, because there is no loss.
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
#11 - 2013-04-29 09:44:19 UTC
Akinesis, if this is true, adding the module-scan-enhancements scanning will be a lot quicker.

Quote:
Current:
Astrometrics L5 + Astrometric Aquisition L4 = 40% reduction in scan time.

After:
Astrometrics L5 + Astrometric Aquisition L4 = 45% reduction in scan time. + module-effects


If this will be done this way, scanning will be too quick i think. You will be able to scan down a ship on a savespot in seconds. I don't think this is good.
Akinesis
CRIMSON ASSAULT
#12 - 2013-04-29 10:06:17 UTC
True, adding the modules will make it faster to scan ships. I live in a WH, so this will work against me as much as it will work for me. I was just trying to quell the 'sanning's being nerfed!' rage. When in actual fact, it's getting a huge buff with the modules and current scanning skills are largely unchanged (someone with all four scanning skills trained to, say, L4 will not notice a difference and only someone with staggered skills will notice an up or down difference).

CCP wanted to make scanning more appealing and the modules will aid new players with decent scanning ability a lot faster. For those with high scanning skills already, the addition of the modules will make them vastly more efficient (especially with scan implants on top!!).

However, if you think about it (from a WH perspective), a seasoned combat scanner will use the probes no shorter than before anyway. And a seasoned potential victim should still be able to spot the probes on DSCAN and still get away in time if the hunter is relatively unexperienced.

Gnoshia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-04-29 10:16:56 UTC
Akinesis wrote:
True, adding the modules will make it faster to scan ships. I live in a WH, so this will work against me as much as it will work for me. I was just trying to quell the 'sanning's being nerfed!' rage. When in actual fact, it's getting a huge buff with the modules and current scanning skills are largely unchanged (someone with all four scanning skills trained to, say, L4 will not notice a difference and only someone with staggered skills will notice an up or down difference).

CCP wanted to make scanning more appealing and the modules will aid new players with decent scanning ability a lot faster. For those with high scanning skills already, the addition of the modules will make them vastly more efficient (especially with scan implants on top!!).

However, if you think about it (from a WH perspective), a seasoned combat scanner will use the probes no shorter than before anyway. And a seasoned potential victim should still be able to spot the probes on DSCAN and still get away in time if the hunter is relatively unexperienced.



Don't forget that all probes can be launched at once. No more clicking for each individual probe to be launched. That alone is tons of saved time.
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
#14 - 2013-04-29 10:29:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Gnoshia wrote:

Don't forget that all probes can be launched at once. No more clicking for each individual probe to be launched. That alone is tons of saved time.


This adds another factor of less time needed. Even if i dont like this, in the end there will be a lot more fight happening because of this change than before. More advantage for the hunter, less advantage for the prey.

Edit: Oh God. This sounds like i am trying to defend carebears. After i thought about it, more fights are better. Hopefully i will be on the right side of the gun. Pirate
Akinesis
CRIMSON ASSAULT
#15 - 2013-04-29 10:37:56 UTC
Forgot about that, lol In that case, that alone will result in more ship losses. Those 6-or-so seconds saved will surely result in more death. But that is a different issue to the skills/modules :)
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#16 - 2013-04-29 11:39:43 UTC
I'd highly recommend trying this out on the test server once it's available there, and posting feedback in the test server forum. Whether or not it's "too fast" can only really be judged by experienced users (ie, you lot) trying it and seeing where the balance falls Smile
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#17 - 2013-04-29 11:46:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
I posted this in the exploration thread. But as the OP says, I also have particular concerns with the new scanning system.

"I am concerned about the details regarding the probing mechanics. What will happen to those who use 8 probes, will we still be able to use them? Also scanning using combat scanning probes will become incredibly quick. Has this been taken account of in the balance decisions, or is it intended that ships become much easier to scan down? Scanning had become sort of an art in its current form, my concern is that it sounds as though it has become dumbed down quite a bit."

CCP Greyscale wrote:
I'd highly recommend trying this out on the test server once it's available there, and posting feedback in the test server forum. Whether or not it's "too fast" can only really be judged by experienced users (ie, you lot) trying it and seeing where the balance falls Smile

Will certainly test this out on the server. My only concern is that scanning has been dumbed down now, Would it be possible to confirm whether this is the case? Thanks
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
#18 - 2013-04-29 11:53:38 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:

My only concern is that scanning has been dumbed down now, Would it be possible to confirm whether this is the case? Thanks


As i wrote in my first post, making scanning easier and more accessible is not the problem. The Problem could be the decrease in time you need to scan ships down.

And until now i see two potential solutions:

a) Decrease the bonusses given by skills, so scanning would take longer (even with the new modules), but not longer than now.
b) Let the modules only give the bonusses to the core scanner probes, not the combat scanner probes.

But as CCP Greyscale mentioned, we have to test in on SiSi and can complain afterwards about it Big smile
blink alt
Doomheim
#19 - 2013-04-29 11:56:34 UTC  |  Edited by: blink alt
Saheed Cha'chris'ra wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:

My only concern is that scanning has been dumbed down now, Would it be possible to confirm whether this is the case? Thanks


As i wrote in my first post, making scanning easier and more accessible is not the problem. The Problem could be the decrease in time you need to scan ships down.

And until now i see two potential solutions:

a) Decrease the bonusses given by skills, so scanning would take longer (even with the new modules), but not longer than now.
b) Let the modules only give the bonusses to the core scanner probes, not the combat scanner probes.

But as CCP Greyscale mentioned, we have to test in on SiSi and can complain afterwards about it Big smile


I do not think the speed in which you could scan someone down is really an issue. Someone using dscan + probes is going to scan someone down on the first scan anyways. I think the real concern is with this vast signal strength increase due to the new modules. With this higher signal strength you will be able to scan certain ships down with your probes off dscan that you currently can not.
Lord Okinaba
Aliastra
#20 - 2013-04-29 12:07:43 UTC
Well I think less time scanning and more time actually doing stuff is a good thing.

One thing I would say, is that those large Green and Orange boxes which display sites in space are FUGLY and ruin the overall aesthetics of the game.
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