EVE General Discussion

As a high sec carebear, I only have one thing to say to CCP about these changes.

GOOD JOB!



But.... the value of my minerals will fall....
1) SO. If mineral prices fall much below the mission/mine equilibrium point, I'll go mission instead, just like I was doing when drone poo was driving down mineral prices.

2) Enough people do switch to mission running, prices will return to equilibrium.

3) 1 and 2 above, I just get bigger belts again, instead of the overmined, have to hunt for fat belts, that we have now.

4) Since a lot of miners use PLEX to fund lots of alts, and the decision to use these alts is largely based on number of hours of mining to buy a PLEX, IF mining profitability drops, either PLEX price will drop (meaning the same number of hour for me to fund my accounts) or miners will drop alts until mineral prices return to a more reasonable number of hours of mining to fund their accounts.


In a player driven market, prices will correct.

I think if CCP's vision for the game was one guy with a credit card problem being fed by another guy with asperger's syndrome then the majority of us would quietly back out of the room.

this may or may not be happening.

Like you were saying;

1: Mineral supply of low ends in 0.0 increases, resulting in reduced demand from highsec. (amount of reduction is only speculation at this point
2: Low end mineral price in highsec drops, based on reduced demand
3a: Price of products produced with minerals drops accordingly
3b: Some miners shift from mining, to other direct income sources, like incursions, or missions or faction warfare
4: Reduced number of miners, means a reduction in supply of low end minerals mind in highsec
5: Reduced supply causes mineral price to rise, to a point where enough people are willing to (afk?) mine it, over missioning, to meet the demand.
6: After enough dips and rises, equilibrium is reached.

End result:
A) mineral prices drop overall: Most things become cheaper, market deflation, missioners and direct isk revenues acquire more wealth for their efforts, little change for miners.
B) mineral prices increase overall: Market inflation, direction isk revenues get less to play with for their time spent grinding, little change for miners.

I'm exited for the changes although I'm not sure mining or any other easily discoverable ISK making will ever be profitable in low sec as there are enough of us bored PVPers who will kill any helpless ratters or miners no matter how many show up.

It's not that we sit around doing nothing, it's that low sec is such that you kill every single thing you can if you have the chance. There are no instant fights, so if you're roaming looking for a fight and you see a miner in an easily discoverable location, you will kill it. In my two months of eve I've only found one miner in a belt in low sec, guess what happened to him...

Unless you can work out some kind of escort to protect you, people who are out looking for other combat fitted ships to blow up will be more than happy to take time to kill your mining skiff

if i understood the blog grave are being removed end of storie that mean in whs to

How much more mining will be done in WH now that finding mining sites requires no effort? Mining used to be relatively safe since you could watch for scan probes and GTFO. Now the first thing you will know about people invading your wormhole is the Arazu decloaking and scramming your mining fleet. This applies for nullsec too: it used to be possible to mine in grav sites even when you had AFK cloakers because you knew that paying attention to D-scan would provide sufficient warning that the AFK cloaker was actually at the keyboard and actively hunting you.

Which will have the greater impact: the boosting of nullsec supply due to super-ores, or the constriction of nullsec supply due to nerfing of grav sites? Perhaps I am wrong about super-ores killing hisec mining, and null sec miners will happily mine in dangerous conditions because they are going to make building those supercapitals so much easier with local tritanium and pyerite supplies.

There are a lot of people in nullsec right now thinking that the reduction of logistics pain will be a good thing for nullsec. I happen to disagree, simply because disrupting the logistics chain is a means for inflicting pain on your enemies. By removing the requirement for a logistics chain CCP will reduce the number of ways that pain can be inflicted on other entities in nullsec.

A better option for increasing the demand for miners in nullsec is to balance ores properly, i.e.: fill in the holes present in the ubiquitous refining spreadsheet, and eliminate mineral compression while reworking refineries. Thus a nullsec entitiy can choose between hauling 40 times as many freighter loads of minerals as they currently do, or encouraging miners to operate in that entity's space. At the same time spodumain and gneiss would become not-worthless, and scordite would be worth less than high end ores.

Here are the fixes that would have filled the holes in the refining spreadsheet and led to better value mining-for-profit, all numbers refer to a single refining batch of each respective ore:

• Pyroxeres: swap 11 Nocxium for 500 Pyerite
• Omber: add 300 Mexallon
• Jaspet: swap 8 Zydrine and 259 Tritanium for 300 Isogen
• Gneiss: add 300 Nocxium
• Spodumain: swap 700 tritanium for 200 Noxcium & 400 Zydrine

Adding tritanium and pyerite to the high-ends to produce super-ores means that mining operations in nullsec are forced to deal with large quantities of tritanium and pyerite, regardless of their purpose in mining. Are nullsec miners mining for supply or profit? Since nullsec miners are targeting specific hidden belts and complaining about Spodzilla, I suspect the answer is that they are mining for profit (i.e.: ISK/hr). Thus adding low end minerals will be hampering profitable mining simply due to the need to deal with surplus low end minerals.

Removing Nocxium from low end ores means the value of Nocxium will increase, simply because you don't have 80% of the miners in the game gathering trace quantities of Nocxium in the "safety" of hisec. Adding more high end minerals to the high end ores means that nullsec miners have the choice to mine for ISK, then pay ISK to import the less valuable minerals, thus making best use of their time. Making best use of their time by mining for ISK also means nullsec miners are exposed to danger for less time.

Moving all existing system belts to anomalies would be a good idea simply because it removes the ability to bookmark the dense veldspar rocks. Moving hidden belts to anomalies, which everyone will see automatically when they jump into a system, is a mistake. Nullsec miners previously had the protection of being in grav sites which need to be probed down. Paying attention to d-scan was their way of staying alive. Now they have no chance of seeing the bad guy coming.

Another buff to hidden belts would be to automatically despawn them if they are touched and then abandoned. That is, mine some stuff out of the belt to set a "violated" flag, and have the site despawn if it is violated and there are no pilots in the pocket.

What hampers nullsec industry right now is the lack of effective manufacturing capacity and the lack of effective refining capacity. Resolving these two issues will do far more to increase the demand for miners in nullsec than "super veldspar" or "super scordite". Addressing the need for effective mining and refining capacity by encouraging nullsec denizens to deploy POSes will also address the "farms and fields" design goal, as well as addressing the "bottom up economy" design goal. A "simple" change to POS refineries would be to reduce the CPU requirement (to about 1/2 of current values), reduce the cycle time from 3 hours to 1 hour, and remove the ridiculous 75% cap on efficiency. A better change to POS refineries is to convert them to activity lines. Thus a single POS refinery might have 6 refining lines each capable of handling 20,000m3 of stuff per hour, with efficiency affected by the skill of the character starting a job.

I would like to see resource rebalancing provide incentive for more miners to move to lowsec and nullsec, rather than allowing the existing lowsec and nullsec miners to make more from the work they're already doing.

That's one of the things hampering nullsec industry. But even if outposts had infinity slots each and they all had base 100% refineries, it's still not worth building there unless there's an adequate local supply of low end minerals, because it's easier to move the high ends to the low ends than vice versa (and the of course all the other advantages that hi-sec industry gets, yadda yadda). There's no global slot shortage - in fact there's a global oversupply, since most hi-sec slots are left unused.

As someone who has spent a lot of time mining (and producing stuff) in highsec I was appalled when I moved to null.

Sure nice shiny rocks that appear to contain huge amounts of isk.

However, ores and minerals aren't isk until they're sold.

And I have to admit that I said f*ck this for a lark and went back to hisec.

I currently make a living as an indy in hisec, and watching/reading the news I understand that I'll have to adapt, and most likely drop a bit in income.

But I think it's the correct move by CCP.

Before there was no reason for me to move to null, I make more than enough where I am.

But this might actually force me to ponder profit, and might even ponder talking to people in other places who might want to work with an Indy.

And while I often play solo, I accept that EvE is an MMO, and that I'll have to make the choice to play solo with smaller profit, or bite the bullet and actually discuss cooperation with others.

Exactly, add something to spod to make it valuable, such as filling the nocxium hole in the spod refining out put. No need to pile in loads of trit which is just going to be dumped on a local market.



Providing bucket loads of low-ends as a side effect of mining-for-profit will not address the issue of local supply of low-ends. To get low ends to manufacturing facilities, the current method is mineral compression in high sec, jump freighter the stuff down to a refinery in the same system as the manufacturing is going to take place, refine, haul a short distance, manufacture.



This same constraint applies to bulk-but-not-huge supplies of trit and pyerite mined "locally". The only way that locally mined trit is going to be competitive with hisec mined, mineral compressed trit is if mineral compression is removed. Would you prefer to haul 40:1 compressed trit in one jump freighter, three jumps from hisec, or 40 freighter loads of tritanium two jumps each way in nullsec?

I do understand the logistics of nullsec manufacturing. I fear that you are viewing the situation through a rose-tinted monocle.