These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Remove High-Sec Belts and replace with Roaming Grav Sites
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Angelic Resolution
The Arcanum
#121 - 2013-04-27 04:11:57 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
the idea is interesting, but i cannot see a way to make baby sitting barges interesting and profitable enough for combat pilots without infringing on a more dedicated combat based career system (missions). its either too easy and low pay, or ur barges have to bail or get alpha'd.


Well, yes...but without the ore the prices spike hard so there's a vested interest for all parties.

I do think it could be done and certainly merits exploring further. Perhaps the rat AI could be tweaked to target non-combatants last or only after a certain time, for example.

It'd be a hell of a lot more interesting that the "oh, look frigates" spawns that happen on a timer.


it would definitely be more interesting, just like it used to be a lot more interesting. however, eve is a lot more care bear friendly these days, so much that it takes away from the emergent game play u hint at in ur first line.

suicide ganking is a similar threat as the rats we are talking about here. but rather than defend themselves, miners whined until they got a massive EHP buff.

war decs also taken out against miners were a good reason for miners to think about protection, but again, there was a lot of whining (and i mean a LOT) and CCP changed the rules of the game accordingly.

No matter what interesting features u put in place, miners will not accept a threat to their ability to mine all day, every day, un molested and in anything but a max yield fit ship. i dnt know why i didnt think of that point earlier. there are very few miners that will be happy they have to have a combat escort to watch over their Orca and 5 hulk alts.


Whilst I'll agree that people should be allowed to play the game the way they want to play without fear of being brought into PvP if they don't want to be, I'll also make the same assumption that people who PvP don't want to mine. If only there was a way to pull PvPers into mining without giving them a choice..

Sorry, my sarcasm meter is running through the Red. Let me try that again.

I'm a casual player. That instead of putting up with a grief corp/extortion corp war decing me, I'd rather drop corp and do missions and be safe. Because I honestly can't be bothered with facing off against another player. Why? Because that's my choice.

If you so want to attack people and explore that 'emergent game play' people talk about so often, go to low-sec - where you'll face people of the same inclination - or go to 0 where you'll face worse. Hell go join RvB or even Eve-Uni. All the PvP you'll want in the style you'll want it, except you won't have mining-barges as a target. That'd be real PvP though.. right?

I've done 0.0, I've done gate camps on low-sec/null routes, it's boring as ****. I'm still yet to attack a mining barge and call it PvP though.
Angelic Resolution
The Arcanum
#122 - 2013-04-27 04:14:31 UTC
Conrad Gallos wrote:
Angelic Resolution wrote:

When you manipulate your probes to scan for a site and get them in range at 20% for example, you need to narrow down the field which will often involve changing the view-able area of your screen to gain a greater understanding of where to position your probe to gain greater strength.

Given a BOT can only "SEE" an X and Y (Horizontal and vertical axis), attempting to manipulate the probes to get them at a higher strength would involve moving each probe, one at a time, along each of the axis attempting to get a hit within the Red Rings - which as you know is dynamic at all times - and calculating the position required for each of the Probes.

Now whilst I'll be the first to admit, emulating mouse and keyboard movements can be done; the simple fact remains that automating the 'red ring' find functions, really isn't that possible. A bot can 'SEE' the bubbles of the probe. It can 'SEE' the red rings but how do you tell it to put all of the probes in a patter to create an overlap that will cover the red ring? Not possible.

Factor in 4 probes required, likelihood due to error and the inability for what's "SEEN" by the bot to grasp where the location might be and you're back at needing a hook into the eve client to figure it all out.

Otherwise I like the respawn points except the last one. Pretty sure CCP removed decent roids from Missions because we were all farming them like mad XD 4 missions at once could turn a really good profit, even before orca's XD


The bot can reconstruct 3D in the same way as human. It can move the camera to view from different angle and then use some Open Source Computer Vision library to reconstruct the 3D positions. But personally, I think that intercepting the rendering calls is much simpler. All wallhacks and other FPS cheats do exactly this and if the bot is done in a smart way, it is quite hard to detect.


For scanning or probes. From what I'm reading of that, it's not exactly as 'simple' as you make it sound. Also it reads as though the only thing being manipulated is the camera view, not the 4 probes required in order to reach 100% signal. Am I reading it wrong? =\
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#123 - 2013-04-27 05:42:43 UTC
Angelic Resolution wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
the idea is interesting, but i cannot see a way to make baby sitting barges interesting and profitable enough for combat pilots without infringing on a more dedicated combat based career system (missions). its either too easy and low pay, or ur barges have to bail or get alpha'd.


Well, yes...but without the ore the prices spike hard so there's a vested interest for all parties.

I do think it could be done and certainly merits exploring further. Perhaps the rat AI could be tweaked to target non-combatants last or only after a certain time, for example.

It'd be a hell of a lot more interesting that the "oh, look frigates" spawns that happen on a timer.


it would definitely be more interesting, just like it used to be a lot more interesting. however, eve is a lot more care bear friendly these days, so much that it takes away from the emergent game play u hint at in ur first line.

suicide ganking is a similar threat as the rats we are talking about here. but rather than defend themselves, miners whined until they got a massive EHP buff.

war decs also taken out against miners were a good reason for miners to think about protection, but again, there was a lot of whining (and i mean a LOT) and CCP changed the rules of the game accordingly.

No matter what interesting features u put in place, miners will not accept a threat to their ability to mine all day, every day, un molested and in anything but a max yield fit ship. i dnt know why i didnt think of that point earlier. there are very few miners that will be happy they have to have a combat escort to watch over their Orca and 5 hulk alts.


Whilst I'll agree that people should be allowed to play the game the way they want to play without fear of being brought into PvP if they don't want to be, I'll also make the same assumption that people who PvP don't want to mine. If only there was a way to pull PvPers into mining without giving them a choice..

Sorry, my sarcasm meter is running through the Red. Let me try that again.

I'm a casual player. That instead of putting up with a grief corp/extortion corp war decing me, I'd rather drop corp and do missions and be safe. Because I honestly can't be bothered with facing off against another player. Why? Because that's my choice.

If you so want to attack people and explore that 'emergent game play' people talk about so often, go to low-sec - where you'll face people of the same inclination - or go to 0 where you'll face worse. Hell go join RvB or even Eve-Uni. All the PvP you'll want in the style you'll want it, except you won't have mining-barges as a target. That'd be real PvP though.. right?

I've done 0.0, I've done gate camps on low-sec/null routes, it's boring as ****. I'm still yet to attack a mining barge and call it PvP though.


of course u realise that ur pitting urself against other players when u sell and buy items, right? And ur also pitting urself against other players by just mining rocks. 0/10 for completely misunderstanding emergent gameplay and PvP.

by just taking away the rocks that i myeslf may want to mine, or my friends may want to mine and then selling them on the market for prices that compete with myself or my friends, u make urself our competition. It is already PvP before a shot has even been fired.

call it PvP or dnt call it PvP, i'm still going to do what i can to reduce ur ability to operate in the same area as me or my friends. dnt like it? then leave the area.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2013-04-30 06:18:43 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Mocam wrote:


It really depends on how it would be balanced and yes belt ratting in null already matches and/or beats L4's for income if done right. Now crank up the speed of the rats spawning and such ... Toss in the accelerated spawning also causing officers to spawn more readily in that area...

For highsec? It might get close but I'd doubt it would meet or exceed the income via trashier rats. Yet if they added a weaker class of officer type rats in highsec to make things a bit more valuable and challenging? ...

What you would find is L2, 3 and early L4 pilots might just get into this far more than trying out for L4's as main-stay income.

This isn't like incursions - any ship that can fly can help out and simply finding a belt with miners would mean a steady stream of rats to help deal with the issues. Once people do start working in teams, it's generally easier to keep that going vs the first steps of getting them started doing teamwork efforts.

Again, it was an old idea and it didn't go anywhere back then. :-)


what does 'if done right' mean? because if it means fitting an expensive ship, paying attention and generally putting work in, i can already see why it pays more than level 4's, which require none of these.

dnt see the value of valuable spawns in hi-sec either. dnt need more loot pinata's there unless u want such items to be even less valuable. mini-officer rats certainly wouldnt be a challenge. if there was a possibility u might lose ur ship, then no hi-sec bear would face it, not without a large fleet or logi (thus eliminating the risk/challenge)

running L1s, 2s and 3s are required to run level 4s...u'd basically have to chose running belts or missions. u couldn't start out running belts and then think 'ah, i think i could run a level 4 now' cause u still have to grind from the beginning for standings.

what would stop the rats targeting the barge ur trying to defend and alpha-ing it to pieces? or a frig (seeing as anyone can join in)? newer players would be about as helpful as they are in missions, in which case, why not just run missions?

the idea is interesting, but i cannot see a way to make baby sitting barges interesting and profitable enough for combat pilots without infringing on a more dedicated combat based career system (missions). its either too easy and low pay, or ur barges have to bail or get alpha'd.


What? I don't see some of what you are talking about.

Even the flimsiest barge won't be alpha shot by a rat. That takes some combat. Even now if a barge is flown into a combat mission it won't be 1-shot but it will die if it's not taken care of and help would be needed very fast for some of them.

As for your L1's on up - think about it. Any ship in the game can mine with mining lasers - more than 1, thus "lasers" vs laser.

For some old missions, I used to use a Vexor to mine with when I did some of them so mine with lasers and drop a flight of drones out to deal with rats. No real difference with this - just extended so you fly out with a mining lasers then move up to the barges and such. Exhumers are no different than a T2 style cruiser and there are variants of those (HAC's) that do L4 missions and some of the barges and exhumers can take a very decent beating these days.

With respect to this chain of logic; even today, if you go into some L4 missions and pull "full room aggro" you're going to get popped, even in multi-billion isk battleships. Doing a tough mission the wrong way will get you popped so you learn how to run them in a fashion that won't get you popped- or you bring in another/others (alts usually) to help keep you going.

With respect to babysitting; it isn't babysitting, it's ratting where you depend upon a miner or miners to control how many rats show up - by how much is mined. The more mined, the faster (and potentially) tougher/more valuable the rats are.

"If done right" means this is a vague concept that would take balancing so as to not prevent people from mining solo but to limit what they do so it is far more advantageous to have others around. That's a balancing act based upon what ships can and will come along and a workable balance point between them. Too heavy and you'll gut mining. Too light and you have not encouraged group play - as you say "babysitting" vs ratting.

Again, If done right then it would be possible to increase how much ore a given ship can mine. Why?

Because more ore = more/tougher rats = higher risks, etc. As such, "balance" of risks to rewards so ratters gain by helping protect (not babysit, using that miner as the source of the rats) while miners also can run all out with their equipment to get the place hopping enough to keep the ratters happy - as long as others are there.

If on your own? Then you'd best learn how to throttle down what you do or you'll "pull full room aggro" and end up losing your ship. A tricky thing to balance.

That's the general idea but, again, vague vs any quantities to cause rats to spawn, balancing it so as to keep combat ships actively running vs an AFK mining fleet with 1 combat ship, etc.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2013-04-30 06:22:55 UTC
I think that It would be interesting making all Mining sites probable, adding an Utility Hi-slot for the mining barges, and creating an specific ORE gravimetric scanner probe launcher.... A probe launcher with HUGE bonus to find these sites in space...

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Loki Feiht
Warcrows
THE OLD SCHOOL
#126 - 2013-04-30 11:18:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Loki Feiht
I'd like to see actual asteroid belts (like our own solar system) and ring mining myself and I liked the 'miner noise' idea so much I included it in a thread I started about a more alive feeling universe btw.

Proper asteroid belts can (would) still have warp in beacons, the older populated systems would have been mined out centuries ago I would think and not every solar system has to have them or a tonne of ore in them, I also agree with the random respawn rates as opposed to respawn after downtime.

More NPC - Randomly Generated Modular Content thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=220858