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Mining payoff - nullsec vs. highsec

Author
Dave Stark
#21 - 2013-04-25 23:15:25 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
When there's some sort of actual risk to nullsec mining the nullsec ores will be worth way more.


when you're forced to mine ores worth 2m isk/can because they're just terrible, no amount of risk either way will change that.
violator2k5
Crescent Nova
#22 - 2013-04-26 00:53:56 UTC
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
There's a few of these exotic ores that are somewhat better than the highsec stuff. But when you factor in the other elements - having to constantly be on alert for belt rat spawns (hint: these things can't be killed by a few measly drones, i.e. they are battleships), having to constantly be on alert for some ganker, never being able to afk mine, etc. it totally isn't worth it.

Is there something I missed? Was my return-on-investment calculation off?


why are you mining when you could be smacking those hauler spawns and pulling at least 50-75mil units of trit for a little pewpew + possible chance at other random amounts of minerals dropping too?

out of those 68 ppl in your corp surely you could organize 1 or 2 of them to belt rat while you mine, so it would help you at least a little. Plus it would get rid of the boredom just sitting there when you could be on voice coms talking with them and the only 2 things you'd really have to pay attention to in the end would be local and when you either need to change roids or empty your hull.

I can understand your frustration at the amount of income on both of those however the main minerals refined from null sec ore as you know are zyd, mega and morphite. admittingly you can get zyd from low sec but in much smaller quantities and have a greater chance at being ganked by pirates while mining compared to null sec unless your on lock down due to being camped in or under constant attack from hostiles.

what do you think would happen if the supply to empire from null sec and w-space on those 3 minerals was stopped or put on hold for a while would do?

personally I think that it would increase prices thus increase the prices on ships and t2 stuffs, there will always be a supply of zyd / mega which would come from mission runners refining loot, just not in the quantities of which is needed.
Zifrian
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-04-26 01:15:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
Today's prices: http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/6913/apr25ore.jpg

Payoff depends on several factors. In general though, mining prices have gone from nullsec being on top, to high now to more of a half and half. Hemo and Hedber are really low sec ores, but they are more plentiful in nullsec. The payout will also depend on if you have orca or rorq support. The rorq is really a big boost and if you don't have it, then yeah it's not going to be much different than highsec.

In any case, mining in null isn't really to make isk imo. I mine veld and other ores out of industry necessity, not to make isk. If I wanted to make isk, I'd just stay in highsec. Much easier and I could do 10 other things at the same time. It's also boring as hell.

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Asmodai Xodai
#24 - 2013-04-26 01:52:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Asmodai Xodai
violator2k5 wrote:

why are you mining when you could be smacking those hauler spawns and pulling at least 50-75mil units of trit for a little pewpew + possible chance at other random amounts of minerals dropping too?


1. Not really 'mining.' I just prospected it is all. All I've ever heard from day one is that all the lucrative ore is in nullsec, that high risk = high reward, while low risk = low reward, that there was this dark ochre and golden omber and spudamain floating around nullsec, blah blah. So I get there and check it out, and the volume of minerals per unit is so high that it's not any more lucrative than highsec, and certainly not once you've factored in the risk.

I'm not issuing a complaint. At all. I'm issuing my surprise, and wondering if I got something wrong. Since folks here concur, it seems I didn't. My advice for people lusting for nullsec ore is to stay in highsec and mine scordite.

Again, I was just surprised as hell is all.

2. I know nothing of hauler spawns, where they spawn, how often they spawn, blah blah.

Quote:
out of those 68 ppl in your corp surely you could organize 1 or 2 of them to belt rat while you mine, so it would help you at least a little.


Possibly. But I don't like to annoy people, and it does seem that most of them are doing something more important than running escort for some lowly miner. Also, I get the impression that mining is somewhat looked-down on. No one has actually said that, it's just an impression.

Again, I'm not complaining that I can't mine. In fact, I did mine just to prospect the ores. I'm just registering my extreme surprise that all this dark ochre and golden omber and spudomain floating around isn't worth any more than just grinding scordite in highsec. That's my only point.

Does anyone else find this as strange?
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-04-26 02:18:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
Did mining in highsec for a while, as it was the best way out of everything I tried to get money.

you REALLY didnt try very hard, did you?
i cant even hypothetically think of a PVE profession that earns less than mining...

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Asmodai Xodai
#26 - 2013-04-26 02:26:58 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
Did mining in highsec for a while, as it was the best way out of everything I tried to get money.

you REALLY didnt try very hard, did you?
i cant even hypothetically think of a PVE profession that earns less than mining...


You really like to make strong statements about things you know little about, don't you?

Under the baseline conditions I was working with (new very low-skilled character, no money, a lone actor, etc) - yes, it was the best.

Trading requires 1) lots of money, and 2) lots of trading knowledge, as well as skills. To make more money hauling than I did mining would require a freighter, which means skills and money. Making lucrative money missioning requires level 4s, and I had just recently only gotten into level 2s. Ratting in highsec is a joke. Etc.

Yes, mining was the best by far. I could pull 5 million every 45 minutes or thereabouts. Nothing else I tried was close.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#27 - 2013-04-26 03:20:26 UTC
Toshiroma McDiesel wrote:
Same old argument I've seen before. If people really want to fix the disparity in price for hisec/nullsec ores, we need lots more people mining in Hisec, and far less mining Null. Maybe even more Null miner ganking.

Couple years back I once saw a Goon state that he would gank any Goon he caught mining. I wonder if he ever did.


It would also help if the main source of ores in 0.0 (mining anomalies) didn't have a lower per-m^3 ore value than hi-sec belts.

Add low-end minerals to Spodumain, several problems mitigated at once.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

violator2k5
Crescent Nova
#28 - 2013-04-26 04:08:56 UTC
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
2. I know nothing of hauler spawns, where they spawn, how often they spawn, blah blah.

Possibly. But I don't like to annoy people, and it does seem that most of them are doing something more important than running escort for some lowly miner. Also, I get the impression that mining is somewhat looked-down on. No one has actually said that, it's just an impression.


Hauler spawns appear in high sec, low sec and null sec space. I have no idea of the chances on finding them as to me its completely random. I've came across 2 of those spawns in high sec and several of them in null sec. They appear in the belts you mine in, in the form of npc rats. Considering your in null sec space I believe they come up as BS sized npc's so it might be a good idea to check them out by clicking on them to see which icon appears.

I didn't check your char age before responding last time just the size of your corp. There is 2 questions i'd like to ask which I think might bring some light to your thoughts about the difference in returns for mining.

1) are you using a exhumer to mine, if so which one?

2) can you use T2 crystals for the ore your mining?

with regards to the other comment you made about your corp there is indeed a mind set by a lot of players in this game which look down on "null bears and carebears" yet they seem to forget that its thanks to their help that they have the mods and ships to fly to continue their pvp/ pve'n.

as for the help thing you really wont know until you ask. if there a decent 0.0 corp looking to help their members grow and be faithful towards them then they'll try to assist you when they have free time, keep in mind though that you may not always get assistance and they may get pissed off if you ask for help when there's an alliance op going on
Asmodai Xodai
#29 - 2013-04-26 04:26:50 UTC
violator2k5 wrote:

1) are you using a exhumer to mine, if so which one?

2) can you use T2 crystals for the ore your mining?


1. Retriever.
2. Normally, yes. But in these cases, it was nullsec ores I was prospecting, and I only trained crystals for stuff like scordite in highsec, so no.

The exhumer (or lack of one) and crystals is irrelevant though. The point I'm making is, the nullsec ores often field less money at market than, or are on par with, highsec ores. Crokite, Golden Omber, whatever - doesn't matter. It's all either on par with, or beneath, the highsec stuff. I only found a couple of these exotic ores that fielded more cash, but not substantially more, than the highsec stuff.

The point is, the amount of volume per unit of ore is huge with the nullsec stuff. So you check the prices at market and think your getting rich. But that doesn't factor in volume per unit of ore. When you factor that volume in, you aren't making jack crap.

The easy, no brainer way to do this is to simply mine a complete cargohold full of the stuff, and mouse over it to see how much you could sell it for. Oh, the price may be 700-1000 ISK vs. 35 ISK for Scordite (numbers out of my ass). But the mouseover tells the story, as you can only sell the entire load for the same or less as the Scordite you used to mine in highsec.
violator2k5
Crescent Nova
#30 - 2013-04-26 05:03:40 UTC
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
violator2k5 wrote:

1) are you using a exhumer to mine, if so which one?

2) can you use T2 crystals for the ore your mining?


1. Retriever.
2. Normally, yes. But in these cases, it was nullsec ores I was prospecting, and I only trained crystals for stuff like scordite in highsec, so no.

The easy, no brainer way to do this is to simply mine a complete cargohold full of the stuff, and mouse over it to see how much you could sell it for. Oh, the price may be 700-1000 ISK vs. 35 ISK for Scordite (numbers out of my ass). But the mouseover tells the story, as you can only sell the entire load for the same or less as the Scordite you used to mine in highsec.


ok I can see what your saying however, I need to point out one thing for you, using that mouse over to get a idea of price range is a bad idea since every region is different and its best to work it out from the markets selling cost if you don't want to refine it and sell the minerals yourself later when your skills are good for refining.

the best way to work out how much you can make usually its based on a per hour basis. considering your using a retriever idk if you have a full 25% extra cargo space as the bonus from the mining barge skill as its supposed to give 5% bonus per level for that ship. besides that t2 crystals help you mine more ore per cycle and with an exhumer you can mine even more per hour too.
Asmodai Xodai
#31 - 2013-04-26 05:21:33 UTC
Quote:
ok I can see what your saying however, I need to point out one thing for you, using that mouse over to get a idea of price range is a bad idea since every region is different and its best to work it out from the markets selling cost if you don't want to refine it and sell the minerals yourself later when your skills are good for refining.


Yeah I got latest prices from Jita. I'm sure other nullsec miners can confirm that what I'm saying is true.
Domina Trix
McKNOBBLER DRINKING CLAN
#32 - 2013-04-26 05:27:24 UTC
I think one of the problems with the prices of low and null sec materials is the low numbers required to produce ships compared to hi-sec materials. Take my scorpion bp, it requires only 1848 Megacyte and 4432 Zydrine but 5867756 Tritanium and 1246990 Pyerite. Considering the two main materials come from only one asteroid type, Scordite, there is no wonder it is the most valuable.

For that reason I think they should make Scordite a low/null sec asteroid type.

Two of the defining characteristics of a carebear are wanting other players to play the way the carebear wants and whining on the forums for the game to change when they don't. Yet I see more threads on these forums from gankers than I do miners whining about wanting the game changed to suit them.

Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2013-04-26 05:32:25 UTC
Asmodai Xodai wrote:

The point is, the amount of volume per unit of ore is huge with the nullsec stuff. So you check the prices at market and think your getting rich. But that doesn't factor in volume per unit of ore. When you factor that volume in, you aren't making jack crap.



You're not wrong. This problem with the lack of value in nullsec ores is a known issue. This next expansion seems to have some mining tweaks coming with it, so maybe they'll address it.

In the mean time, nullsec mining is something that is only worth it ran with a properly set up and fairly high skilled mining fleet. Most people in nullsec grind rats instead of rocks for spending isk. For newbies who are living in nullsec, I recommend salvaging as a low skill but decent paying activity.
Dave Stark
#34 - 2013-04-26 06:48:42 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Toshiroma McDiesel wrote:
Same old argument I've seen before. If people really want to fix the disparity in price for hisec/nullsec ores, we need lots more people mining in Hisec, and far less mining Null. Maybe even more Null miner ganking.

Couple years back I once saw a Goon state that he would gank any Goon he caught mining. I wonder if he ever did.


It would also help if the main source of ores in 0.0 (mining anomalies) didn't have a lower per-m^3 ore value than hi-sec belts.

Add low-end minerals to Spodumain, several problems mitigated at once.


this this this this this.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#35 - 2013-04-26 08:41:49 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
It would also help if the main source of ores in 0.0 (mining anomalies) didn't have a lower per-m^3 ore value than hi-sec belts.

Add low-end minerals to Spodumain, several problems mitigated at once.


Yup. Rebalance spodumain to have a decent return for the refinable volume. I would add 200 zydrine and 300 nocxium myself and simultaneously rebalance nocxium by replacing the 11 nocx per refine batch in Pyrox with about 500 pyerite.

But let's see what the EVE Economy sessions today and Resource Rebalancing session tomorrow have in store for us.
Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games.
#36 - 2013-04-26 08:47:58 UTC
1) Ice Mine
2) ???
3) Make POS Fuel
4) Profit

No seriously, POS fuel is massively overpriced at the moment costing around 500m to fuel a large tower for a month.
Camios
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2013-04-26 09:44:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Camios
This is the usual problem of risk vs reward. The problem is not that specifically nullsec ores are not worth it, but that mining in nullsec as a whole is not worth it, unless you are in a coalition with extremely powerful intel and security (and that makes mining almost as safe as in highsec, except the fact that you can AFK in highsec while you can't do it in null).

In my opinion the biggest problem regarding mining and the balance highsec/nullsec is the total lack of sense in mining low end ores in 0.0 thanks to mineral compression. Mineral compression should be removed in favour of a mechanic that allows people to mine safely lowend ores in 0.0 (safely almost as in highsec, I mean). I don't care if I can mine in nullsec with the same level of income but the same level of safety as highsec.

It would make sense that the risk you have were bound to the activity you are doing (and therefore to your income) and not only to the security level of space you are in. The whole idea of PVPers protecting miners is nice in theory but unfortunately impractical in reality.
There is a lot of low-isk-per-hour stuff that could be done locally in 0.0 but it's "delocalized" in highsec because it is less risky there, all for the sake of the false assumption "0.0 must be dangerous for everybody everywhere".
Dave Stark
#38 - 2013-04-26 09:49:08 UTC
Camios wrote:
This is the usual problem of risk vs reward. The problem is not that specifically nullsec ores are not worth it, but that mining in nullsec as a whole is not worth it, unless you are in a coalition with extremely powerful intel and security (and that makes mining almost as safe as in highsec, except the fact that you can AFK in highsec while you can't do it in null).

In my opinion the biggest problem regarding mining and the balance highsec/nullsec is the total lack of sense in mining low end ores in 0.0 thanks to mineral compression. Mineral compression should be removed in favour of a mechanic that allows people to mine safely lowend ores in 0.0 (safely almost as in highsec, I mean). I don't care if I can mine in nullsec with the same level of income but the same level of safety as highsec.

It would make sense that the risk you have were bound to the activity you are doing (and therefore to your income) and not only to the security level of space you are in. The whole idea of PVPers protecting miners is nice in theory but unfortunately impractical in reality.
There is a lot of low-isk-per-hour stuff that could be done locally in 0.0 but it's "delocalized" in highsec because it is less risky there, all for the sake of the false assumption "0.0 must be dangerous for everybody everywhere".


no, nullsec ores not being worth it is the problem. look at spod and gneiss.

it makes perfect sense to mine low end ores in 0.0, because they're still worth more than spod and gneiss. the issue is that veld, pyrox, and plagi simply do not exist in large grav sites. there isn't any to mine, even if you want to.

i honestly don't think you grasp the nature of the problem.
Zifrian
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-04-26 11:46:44 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
It would also help if the main source of ores in 0.0 (mining anomalies) didn't have a lower per-m^3 ore value than hi-sec belts.

Add low-end minerals to Spodumain, several problems mitigated at once.


Yup. Rebalance spodumain to have a decent return for the refinable volume. I would add 200 zydrine and 300 nocxium myself and simultaneously rebalance nocxium by replacing the 11 nocx per refine batch in Pyrox with about 500 pyerite.

But let's see what the EVE Economy sessions today and Resource Rebalancing session tomorrow have in store for us.

Well, all ores should be rebalanced. ABC are not the top three anymore and they are only found in nullsec outside of hidden belts in low. The game is designed to make null ores have the hard to get minerals and highsec veldspar etc. After the drone poo nerf, T1 module drops removed from missions, and the mining barge updates, I think the mineral market has finally stabilized and it's time to do it. Look at my link above to see the distribution in IPH per ore. That hasn't changed much over the past 4 months or so.

However, at a minimum, halving the m3 of spod and gniess (gniess really isn't that big of a problem) would really help. Spod has a bunch of trit in it, which would help in null, and the main reason people can't flip belts in a humanly reasonable amount of time. Flipping belts faster won't change much because the ratio of minerals in the total belt isn't any different than how the prices are set now - trit low to mega high.

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Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#40 - 2013-04-26 11:56:59 UTC
Let's add a sov structure that spawns low ends as grav sites instead of high ends and/or a refinery upgrade allows to refine low ends at above 100% yield with good to really high skills.