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Gate Insta-Death Camps - Am I Missing Something?
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Todath Narod
Integrated Secure Resources Extraction
#21 - 2013-04-25 22:03:14 UTC
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Todath Narod wrote:
Zack Sran wrote:
Just a few things. First, fitting stabs in lows is useless. Heres why. If on a gate, as in you just come through and there are people waiting for you reaproach gate and turn on Your tank. If they attack you then just warp back and reroute the attackers have agro and cant follow. For solo lowsec Mining, always check map stats of people in system and ships destroid stay out of high pop areas. If you fly into one all ways expect the gate camp. You should always fit for tank before anything else( Ie : Max yield )if solo low sec. also gate camp bs fit sensor boosters that plus your bloomed radius from your rigs equals insta lock. last point, don't get pissy when You choose to take a risk and loose a ship to one of the most common mechanics in the game **** happens.

edit: Second point on the stabs thing if you are in a belt in low you should be aligned and always running short scan 500,000 range. if anything shows up On Scan warp off.


1. Checking stats. Did that. Do that all the time. Good advice for everyone.

2. Stabs in low - dont want to have this argument. Its a valid choice for travel and non-combat ships. On the proc the only effect of having stabs in low is A) no mining upgrades and B) have to get to within 7k of the roids to mine them. Big deal. The positive effect of stabs is : you can't be scrammed or destabbed, unless there is a bubble which is extremely rare for what I do. If I didn't have stabs in low, I would have been destroyed 3 or 4 times more than I have. In fact, this is the only time I've actually been destroyed in a ship with stabs.

3. The Proc is a tank by default, but having shield or armor tank modules isn't going to do a whole lot in this situation. The cycle time alone for shield and tank modules is longer than it took for the Proc to get destroyed. Read the OP, each ship got off 1 shot - the total damage of those shots was more HP than the Proc has, from start to finish the engagement lasted LESS THAN 8 SECONDS.

4. Reapproach Gate - sorry that takes about 2 minutes in a procurer. If there were tank modules that could fix 20K damage in 8 seconds, or even 40 seconds since the gankers here were using 1400mm Artilery, then I would consider this. No tank modules I know of have the capacity to repair that much damage in 8 or 40 seconds.

4.5 What sig radius to you need to have to avoid getting locked up in about 5 seconds? Are there any modules or rigs that lower sig?

5. Too bad you choose to characterize this entire thread as an example of pissy. Simply wondering if I am missing anything. Even if this happens again, I don't care about losing the ship, just want to have a loss rate that makes going for the rare ores in low sec worthwhile. Right now its kind of a wash.



1. Good idea

2. You don't know how stabs work. It's a numbers game, you need more warp core stabs. than they have warp points. Most warp scramblers have 2 points (faction ones can have 3)

3. On a Proc. you want buffer and resists if you want fit a tank.

4. To reapproach the gate you will need a MWD and a good tank, I doubt a Proc. can fit both.

4.5. Don't know the numbers for that but a gate camp will be set up to lock you in 1-2 secs. You won't be able to alter that in a shield tank barge.

5. You are missing friends to scout for you.

6. Use a Venture, its what its designed for.


1. thanks
2. wrong. Destabs = -1. Scrams = -2. 2 Stabs = -2. 2 Stabs defeats 1 scram. 1 Stab does not defeat 1 scram.
3. had adaptive invul and 2 rigs for resists.
4.5 Yes I think that's about right. Question is, is there anything that can allow you to survive the post lock 5 seconds?
6. People here keep saying use a venture but dont explain how the outcome would have been different in that ship.
Todath Narod
Integrated Secure Resources Extraction
#22 - 2013-04-25 22:08:27 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
*sigh*
Some of the advice above is sound OP. You're simply hitting your head against the wall hoping for a different result.

- stabs are utterly useless unless you can fit 4 or more. They are also directly countered by Heavy Interdictors and their scripted "infini point." A damage control on the other hand increases your tank by almost HALF.

- the best way to not get killed is to avoid getting into a situation where you might get killed in the first place. To do this try using "back-end" gates that are far from trade hubs. Or use a blockade runner and haul your stuff deep into low-sec.

- Ventures are perfectly suited for low-sec because they are quick and mobile. They don't need a tank when they can simply warp off as soon as something appears on grid. The only place they are most vulnerable is on the undock of a station. Use insta-warp bookmarks and/or warp off to the celestial most in line with your undock path.


Im not hoping for anything. Asking questions to get information and challenging the answers for reliability.

I do a lot of checking to avoid possible situations I know are a problem. For example, often a low sec system bordering hi sec will have a gate that campers favor. It may also have other gates that link to another low sec system, they don't camp there. On routes where it is possible, I avoid these favored gates (out of experience Blink

I can see the possibility of a Venture being A) more difficult to lock due to lower sig and B) quicker to warp out and thus avoiding getting hit at all. Just wanted someone else to say this with authority. Drawback = 55%. Venture ore gathering speed is terrible, Venture ore hold is also terrible. But, that's life.
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#23 - 2013-04-25 22:30:02 UTC
Venture would change the outcome. You said you died in 8 seconds to the first volley. That means it took them probably 4-5 seconds til most of then locked. A venture can align faster than most and is stabbed. With 2 more stabs that's 4 points. The likelyhood of more than 1 scram in range is small. Combine those factors and ventures are, at this point, probably one of the best gatrcamp busting ships in the game short of a covops.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Dyphorus
Inritus Astrum
#24 - 2013-04-25 22:30:15 UTC
Todath Narod wrote:
The job is solo low sec mining.



This is your problem. For the time you spend dodging roamers, gate camps, system campers, not to mention the logistics issues low sec presents and the ships you will loose.....

High sec mining will be much more profitable.

If you want to mine low sec, find a low sec corp that has an area of control that is relatively safe. There's not enough profit vs high sec ore to make it worth your time/effort/risk.
Lambert Simnel
PWLS Enterprises
#25 - 2013-04-25 22:33:37 UTC
I think the point most people are making is that the best defence is not to be there in the first place. If you are taking such a slow aligning ship into low or null then you will not escape gate campers who know what they are doing whatever the fit.

If its a system you mine regularly, use an alt in a covert ops/recon ship to scout the gate for you. These ships should have no problem evading the camp if it is there already. If not, your alt should set up a bookmarked observation spot at a good distance from the gate so you can always see what's there before you enter.

If your cargo/ship is high value then fit your alts ship with a dual web and get them to web you through the gate. It means you will almost insta-warp (although your alt will likely die).
Haulie Berry
#26 - 2013-04-25 23:14:21 UTC
Quote:
3. had adaptive invul and 2 rigs for resists.


Just to be clear about something: That ain't a tank.
Katie Frost
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2013-04-25 23:20:57 UTC
I am unsure why the OP is puzzled with the outcome.

You were engaged by 5 "BS or BC" sized ships. There is a significant difference between the two, by the way but even, for arguments sake, we call them 5 BCs; that is at least 5 points that can lock you in well under 8 seconds - you weren't going to warp off under any circumstances. That is also taking out of the equation the type of ships, damage type applied and the point that your '20k tank' was measured in terms of "effective" hit points.

As to your question of avoiding such outcomes, the short answer is "no" with an 'if' or the long answer is "yes" with a 'but'. The former involves sticking to hi-sec mining, while the latter has been covered in previous posters' responses, namely scouting, using a different (more versitile) ship, fitting advice and so on.
Haulie Berry
#28 - 2013-04-25 23:37:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Katie Frost wrote:
I am unsure why the OP is puzzled with the outcome.

You were engaged by 5 "BS or BC" sized ships. There is a significant difference between the two, by the way but even, for arguments sake, we call them 5 BCs; that is at least 5 points that can lock you in well under 8 seconds - you weren't going to warp off under any circumstances. That is also taking out of the equation the type of ships, damage type applied and the point that your '20k tank' was measured in terms of "effective" hit points.

As to your question of avoiding such outcomes, the short answer is "no" with an 'if' or the long answer is "yes" with a 'but'. The former involves sticking to hi-sec mining, while the latter has been covered in previous posters' responses, namely scouting, using a different (more versitile) ship, fitting advice and so on.



Yeah, his know-it-all tone, combined with a complete lack of any worthwhile knowledge about the game seemed familiar, so I checked his posting history and, oh, right - he's the guy who started a thread about breaking free from tackle that began with (I'm paraphrasing here), "Everyone knows the best way to avoid being scrammed is to fit warp core stabs," then, despite the fact that he was asking for advice, proceeded to ignore everyone who pointed out that warp core stabs are garbage because he's been here for like 3 minutes and knows all about staying safe. Lol
Bloodmyst Ranwar
Leviathan Rising
Fortis Et Certus
#29 - 2013-04-25 23:45:41 UTC
1. Use a scout.

2. Utilize a ship which is much more versatile. Like many others have said, the Venture

3. If you are not prepared to do either steps 1 and/or 2, stay in high sec and don't waste your time.


I really don't see the reason in getting so technical here when the situation is so black and white.
Todath Narod
Integrated Secure Resources Extraction
#30 - 2013-04-26 00:13:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Todath Narod
Katie Frost wrote:
I am unsure why the OP is puzzled with the outcome.

. . . your '20k tank' was measured in terms of "effective" hit points.



Not puzzled. Puzzled why you think the OP and thread is about me being puzzled.

Expectation : that I was actually not missing something and this is what you get when you do what I do and there is no way to mine lowsec without losing a proc to a gatecamp like this. So, actually, the opposite of puzzled.

The proc as fitted has 20k hp. With the resists and the adaptive (assuming its engaged) the EHP would be higher, no?

Use of the term tank in reference to the proc is a general term that many veterans have used. The HP showing on the fittings screen is 20k. Are you saying the EHP is lower?
Todath Narod
Integrated Secure Resources Extraction
#31 - 2013-04-26 00:15:09 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Quote:
3. had adaptive invul and 2 rigs for resists.


Just to be clear about something: That ain't a tank.


Thanks for that clarification. Its seems to me in game terms its a passive tank, but I agree: a real tank has shield and armor tanking modules.
Todath Narod
Integrated Secure Resources Extraction
#32 - 2013-04-26 00:17:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Todath Narod
Haulie Berry wrote:
Katie Frost wrote:
I am unsure why the OP is puzzled with the outcome.

You were engaged by 5 "BS or BC" sized ships. There is a significant difference between the two, by the way but even, for arguments sake, we call them 5 BCs; that is at least 5 points that can lock you in well under 8 seconds - you weren't going to warp off under any circumstances. That is also taking out of the equation the type of ships, damage type applied and the point that your '20k tank' was measured in terms of "effective" hit points.

As to your question of avoiding such outcomes, the short answer is "no" with an 'if' or the long answer is "yes" with a 'but'. The former involves sticking to hi-sec mining, while the latter has been covered in previous posters' responses, namely scouting, using a different (more versitile) ship, fitting advice and so on.



Yeah, his know-it-all tone,


Yeah, same guy who asked the question about breaking tackle. Same guy who expects some know-it-all veterans to make fun of him and/or use his ignorance to demonstrate their leetness. Same guy who doesn't give a rip about all that and still tries to get reliable information that may be of use to other folks who dont have 3 years in the game. I.e. building community rather than ripping it up.

And incidentally when I asked the question a month ago about breaking tackle, I was accused of trolling also.
Todath Narod
Integrated Secure Resources Extraction
#33 - 2013-04-26 00:18:35 UTC
Dyphorus wrote:
Todath Narod wrote:
The job is solo low sec mining.



This is your problem. For the time you spend dodging roamers, gate camps, system campers, not to mention the logistics issues low sec presents and the ships you will loose.....

High sec mining will be much more profitable.

If you want to mine low sec, find a low sec corp that has an area of control that is relatively safe. There's not enough profit vs high sec ore to make it worth your time/effort/risk.



I think you are absolutely correct and this is in accord with my notions as well. I just cant stand buying rares. Pirate
Todath Narod
Integrated Secure Resources Extraction
#34 - 2013-04-26 00:19:25 UTC
Lambert Simnel wrote:
I think the point most people are making is that the best defence is not to be there in the first place. If you are taking such a slow aligning ship into low or null then you will not escape gate campers who know what they are doing whatever the fit.

If its a system you mine regularly, use an alt in a covert ops/recon ship to scout the gate for you. These ships should have no problem evading the camp if it is there already. If not, your alt should set up a bookmarked observation spot at a good distance from the gate so you can always see what's there before you enter.

If your cargo/ship is high value then fit your alts ship with a dual web and get them to web you through the gate. It means you will almost insta-warp (although your alt will likely die).


Good stuff. Thanks.
412nv Yaken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-04-26 00:20:41 UTC
Todath Narod wrote:
Ran into a gate camp of 5 BCs and better while in my Procurer. Dead in 8 seconds. Wondering if I am missing something about how to survive here - or whether realistically there is any chance of someone surviving these.

The Context

1. My Warp Technique and Modules Used

I arrive at the camp having come through the gate. I have 2 warp stabs on the low slots of my Proc, and there are no bubbles. I am in the jump cloak, and take a few seconds to assess the situation: 5 large BS or BC class craft, most of the same corp, positioned around the gate in such a way as to bring anything that de-cloaks under most or all of the gunnery of the group.

The procurer has two shield hardener rigs for EM and Thermal, and the adaptive invul in the middle slot. Net hit points 20K.

I have shortcuts or a quick mouse established to do the following :

align to next gate
engage afterburner
disengage afterburner
engage adaptive invul
warp to stargate

The above means that the warp to the next stargate will begin in about 8.3 seconds. I do this. In less than 8 seconds, dead. 5 gatecamp non-creative kill ganking ships (with t2 weaps and modules allowing insta-lock, of course) did 20K damage in less than 8 seconds. There was no lock warning, meaning insta-lock - I was locked the millisecond after I came out of warp. (Makes one wonder what all the fuss is about in the game mechanics regarding signature radius Big smile)

Conclusion : no way to survive these things.

Request : point out how there is a way to survive. What I am doing wrong, what modules I should be using, etc.


Answer:

Your stabs will do nothing if you have more than 2 people land a scram, also you align time will do nothing, if there fast lock has webs.

Once you have jumped into the gatecamp there is no way to survive in the ship you are in. Scout ahead is the only thing that can be suggested.


A True Champion of High Security Space
412nv Yaken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-04-26 00:23:51 UTC
Todath Narod wrote:


Once again, read the above.

I have used a stopwatch to time my warp initiation cycle with and without the ab (using the method described).


This my friends is taking eve WAAYYYY to seriously.

A True Champion of High Security Space
Todath Narod
Integrated Secure Resources Extraction
#37 - 2013-04-26 00:28:26 UTC
412nv Yaken wrote:
Todath Narod wrote:


Once again, read the above.

I have used a stopwatch to time my warp initiation cycle with and without the ab (using the method described).


This my friends is taking eve WAAYYYY to seriously.


Probably one of the top three posts in this thread. Including all of mine. Big smile
Todath Narod
Integrated Secure Resources Extraction
#38 - 2013-04-26 00:32:52 UTC
412nv Yaken wrote:


Answer:

Your stabs will do nothing if you have more than 2 people land a scram, also you align time will do nothing, if there fast lock has webs.

Once you have jumped into the gatecamp there is no way to survive in the ship you are in. Scout ahead is the only thing that can be suggested.



2 Scrams seems to me unlikely at a gate camp because, unless I am mistaken where people pop out of a gate is variable to about 9km I think. So you would have to have a lot of ships to cover the sphere of probability there. Im more concerned about bubbles - but I really don't know much about that. But, you are right, the math says 2 scrams beats 2 stabs. In fact, 1 scram and 1 destab beats 2 stabs.

And I agree with you and the other poster who said this. It is a system I would like to mine regularly as it would fill all of my rares needs, and positioning an alt about 150km from the gate seems to me like a great and fast way to see the gate camp before I go in. And just to be clear - if I see it, I'm not going in. Blink
Lambert Simnel
PWLS Enterprises
#39 - 2013-04-26 01:37:54 UTC
Todath Narod wrote:
412nv Yaken wrote:


Answer:

Your stabs will do nothing if you have more than 2 people land a scram, also you align time will do nothing, if there fast lock has webs.

Once you have jumped into the gatecamp there is no way to survive in the ship you are in. Scout ahead is the only thing that can be suggested.



2 Scrams seems to me unlikely at a gate camp because, unless I am mistaken where people pop out of a gate is variable to about 9km I think. So you would have to have a lot of ships to cover the sphere of probability there. Im more concerned about bubbles - but I really don't know much about that. But, you are right, the math says 2 scrams beats 2 stabs. In fact, 1 scram and 1 destab beats 2 stabs.

And I agree with you and the other poster who said this. It is a system I would like to mine regularly as it would fill all of my rares needs, and positioning an alt about 150km from the gate seems to me like a great and fast way to see the gate camp before I go in. And just to be clear - if I see it, I'm not going in. Blink


Go for 250kms plus. A sniper nado can easily reach over 100kms and pop your scout if, for whatever reason, they are decloaked. You will still be able to see anyone on-grid at the gate.
Katie Frost
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2013-04-26 05:02:56 UTC
Todath Narod wrote:

Not puzzled. Puzzled why you think the OP and thread is about me being puzzled.

Expectation : that I was actually not missing something and this is what you get when you do what I do and there is no way to mine lowsec without losing a proc to a gatecamp like this. So, actually, the opposite of puzzled.


Firstly, thanks for quoting and responding to probably the most irrelevant parts of my post and ignoring the rest. I can try and get into the semantics of the use of the term "puzzled" with someone that put "Am I missing something?" in the topic and refers in several instances to "wondering" as to why something happened; your general stance is one of confusion seeking a confirmation on the events that transpired - therefore yes, puzzled. You are missing a piece, or several pieces of the puzzle and people have filled the rest of it in for you. If this was not your stance then this thread is merely a rant and should be closed.

Secondly, the tank is of even less relevance. You could have had 100k HP (or EHP), when you had no means to escaping the situation you were in. 5 Battlecruisers locking a Procurer means 5 potential points of warp distruption versus 2 points of warp stabilisation that your ship had. The distance is likewise irrelevant (to an extent), because a BC sitting zero on the gate will be able to lock and warp disrupt you no matter where you de-cloaked (you are generally almost always within the ~24km radius).

P.S. Warp Disruption Fields (Bubbles) are not deployable in low sec.