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[A Better Way] Collecting Demographics & Replacing The CSM

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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2011-11-01 22:10:16 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Saying a thing does not make it so.
In reality, I truly do hold your opinion with the same worth as fart expelled into the wind.

And here we are, at the denial phase.

MaiLina KaTar wrote:
And once again, no, you do not do this with a bunch of unpaid, biased nerds, elected by a tiny fraction of the customer base, who do it part time using unprofessional means. This is not "Stellar Management" it's a recipe for disaster and the past years provide more than enough evidence.

Just how likely do you think it is that CCP will be hiring new people to do this job just after they fired 20% of their employees due to their finances being suboptimal? That is if they haven't got people who are supposed to do this exact thing right now, which I think is pretty unlikely at this point.

I'm fairly certain that absolutely all the data they might want is already there for the taking, there's absolutely no need to either add extra player annoyance with a login poll on top of that, or to add an in-game polling which, again, experience tells us a small percentile of the playerbase will actually know about and use.

As for "the past years", I guess you're not in the camp that sees that CSM6 is doing things a bit differently from CSM5 and previous. vOv

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

MaiLina KaTar
Katar Corp
#42 - 2011-11-01 23:11:51 UTC  |  Edited by: MaiLina KaTar
Lord Zim wrote:
Just how likely do you think it is that CCP will be hiring new people to do this job just after they fired 20% of their employees due to their finances being suboptimal? That is if they haven't got people who are supposed to do this exact thing right now, which I think is pretty unlikely at this point.

That depends solely on how smart CCP's management actually is. And even though my perspective tells me they could certainly do a lot better I won't judge them cause I have no insight whatsoever in their daily business. So yeah... *shrug* it is what is is.
Quote:
I'm fairly certain that absolutely all the data they might want is already there for the taking, there's absolutely no need to either add extra player annoyance with a login poll on top of that, or to add an in-game polling which, again, experience tells us a small percentile of the playerbase will actually know about and use.

There is no experience in that regard because it has never actually been done or even attempted by CCP. But let me assure you that if you do it right it works extremely well, although I can't prove it because doing so could get me fired.
Quote:
As for "the past years", I guess you're not in the camp that sees that CSM6 is doing things a bit differently from CSM5 and previous. vOv

No, not at all. CSM in general is a flawed concept. It's track record proves that.
Just look at what happened here during the past few months and ask yourself how it came about. If CSM was efficient in any way, shape or form we wouldn't be here discussing it and CCP wouldn't have to chop off its limbs.

CSM6 accomplished nothing except regurgitating and warping info that's been floating on these boards and several other places for years on end. The recent increase in apparent awareness by CCP has nothing to do with CSM6 being the self-proclaimed champions they are, but much rather with very real and very severe financial consequences of the company completely failing at customer relations. As a matter of fact, the CSM itself is an outcome of CCP failing at customer relations.
And even if it did have any sort of impact, the effective outcome is still nothing more than CCP now finally beginning to fix stuff that should've been taken care of years ago. The product is far, far from where it should be.

Outsourcing such important tasks to a bunch of dubiously elected part timers is not how you do business. It's how you lose 20% of your company. When you want to know what your customers are thinking you employ professionals who find it out for you. People study customer relations at universities for a reason.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2011-11-02 02:26:06 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Are you saying they do?
Please tell me precisely how they can? Blink

Are you really asking me how CCP can get usage data out of their own game? The game where they can log exactly what the players do at any given time? The game where CCP have repeatedly shown, in great detail, how they even break down every function is being run and how much time is spent in those functions?

If you really are asking me that question, then yeah, I might as well just be talking to a rock for all the sense I'll be able to impart on you.

Parsec Seti wrote:
Usage data would not tell CCP what the players want, or how they feel about the game - and trawling the forums is a poor way of collecting data. There would be no valid way to aggregate the data, and it would be subject to a "fucktonne" of bias.

Actually, I'm not sure it's as impossible as you imply it is. If there are tons of threads about how blasters and railguns are awful to use in PVP, and the usage data mined from the servers themselves show that very few people do, in fact, use rails or blasters, or most of the people using those weapon systems lose the fight, then I'd say they'd have reason to believe that the forum posters are indeed telling the truth.

Of course, all this doesn't hide the fact that regardless of what the data, the forums, the CSM or (if they use them) surveys all say, it's still CCP's prerogative whether or not they actually use this information to modify EVE. The last 18-24 months I'd say they haven't really been doing any of that, because they've been so focused on WoD and Dust514.
MaiLina KaTar wrote:
There is no experience in that regard because it has never actually been done or even attempted by CCP. But let me assure you that if you do it right it works extremely well, although I can't prove it because doing so could get me fired.

I was actually talking about experiences with other MMOs where they've compared forum posts to registered gamers, and they found that 70 or 80% of the playerbase never even read the forums, 15% or so read it but never posted, and the rest posted furiously. While it's probable that EVE's playerbase might be more hardcore than an FPS game's playerbase, it's still most likely going to be a minority that even reads forums, let alone posts on them.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

tengen san
Triton-TC
#44 - 2011-11-02 23:54:57 UTC
Quote:


Because that is relevant to CCP collecting demographics from it's playerbase.


True so fare and done periodically if I remember correctly.

But relying any decision making process exclusively on demographics creates a fail of objectives generated through demographics.
No one could hinder any of the big alliance to give word, even pre-formulated answers to their members to tamper the questionnaire in their favor. In this case the human factor (CSM) is to prefer over sole demographic results as addition to the base of the decision making process and was as such intended.

The human factor always indicates complications on the way to the anticipated result but that is another story already being told elswhere on the trustworthiness, or the lack thereof, of formations of any kind or brand allowed to be on the table.

CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#45 - 2011-11-03 17:03:10 UTC
Off topic posts removed. Please stay on topic and polite, thank you.

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer

Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2011-11-03 18:49:56 UTC
Now that all of Eternum's sock puppetry has been erased maybe he'd like to finally tell us why the CSM needs to be replaced.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.

Sephiroth Clone VII
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#47 - 2011-11-03 20:07:20 UTC
Its not like we could have both crowdsourcing player input and the csm.

If we have both, wouldn't that mean CCP would have to listen to one, maybe?

Would the existence of both inhibit listening to feedback, and making actions based on feedback?

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2011-11-03 20:43:10 UTC
God damn I hate that word, "crowdsourcing". Just like "cloud services" means "webhosting" or "dedicated server", only it's not obscure and sexy enough.

As to getting demographics (I'm still waiting to see if Eternum has any ideas for what kind of profiles to make), as long as they have people to process them, it's possible. I still have a lot of doubt as to their efficiency or even response rate, but whatever, it's not like it's 100% exclusive. It would at the very least have to be compared to whatever the users are actually doing in-game, not just what they say they're doing for verification, and getting demographics and statistics will still not be a replacement for asking actual players face to face what they think of old and new features.

And that brings me on to how I'm still waiting on clarification on why the CSM should need replacing, as well.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2011-11-03 23:14:04 UTC
Sephiroth CloneIIV wrote:
Its not like we could have both crowdsourcing player input and the csm.

If we have both, wouldn't that mean CCP would have to listen to one, maybe?

Would the existence of both inhibit listening to feedback, and making actions based on feedback?


Crowdsourcing is marketing doublespeak. Stop falling for the trap.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.

Johan Krieger
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2011-11-04 01:43:41 UTC
Yes, please give me 50,000 ISK per vote, so i can set up a macro to vote on every single question and finally become spacerich.
Vio Geraci
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2011-11-05 16:28:28 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Crowdsourcing is marketing doublespeak. Stop falling for the trap.


Corporate doublespeak appeals to the keen business senses of the inherently superior Icelandic businessman!
May Zonday
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2011-11-09 04:53:20 UTC
Vio Geraci wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Crowdsourcing is marketing doublespeak. Stop falling for the trap.


Corporate doublespeak appeals to the keen business senses of the inherently superior Icelandic businessman!

Vikings brought the secret of corporate newspeak with them as they ruined the landscape and laid waste to the northern seas ages ago
Antipokeman
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2011-11-09 12:46:43 UTC
You'll never get perfect unbiased representation. Not saying this is even an issue, but it has been pretty obvious CCP checks these forums and the amount of feedback they get. Seems like a good system to me already
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