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[A Better Way] Collecting Demographics & Replacing The CSM

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Eric Xallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#21 - 2011-10-27 02:13:05 UTC
If a player sees the CSM tag and thinks they are a CCP rep then they are wrong.

Just because someone thinks I am the pope doesn't make it so.

CSMs are player advocates, liasons to CCP on behalf of the players, they are the players voice, not CCP's voice to the players. ISDs and GMs are completely different to the CSM.

If the CSM were reps of CCP then I am sure Hilmar would have fired half of them for the agitation they've been raising (on behalf of us) the last 6 months.

If you think the CSM is a rep of CCP, then you're just wrong, sorry.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2011-10-27 12:30:40 UTC
Still harping on about this demographical representation, I see.

I'm still waiting for a clarification as to why looking at what ships people have, what they fly, where they fly it, how they fit it and just what they do with it, what they post on forums etc in general is insufficient, and why you feel the need to actively bother people with questionaires as well will actually help. I think you'll find that people are lazy.

And of course, there's the question of why replace the CSM.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2011-10-27 13:57:10 UTC
No, it's more that your suggestion is a bad one, it would lead to lower quality data for CCP, and you still haven't come up with a single good reason to replace the CSM.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#24 - 2011-10-27 13:59:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Lord Zim wrote:
No, it's more that your suggestion is a bad one, it would lead to lower quality data for CCP, and you still haven't come up with a single good reason to replace the CSM.


Incorrect.
See, I can do that too.


Also Himlar thinks CSM's are not currently working as intended, because they are too focused on one part of the gameplay.








Thx for bumping my idea!

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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2011-10-28 23:04:04 UTC
So, about this CSM replacement thing.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2011-10-29 21:15:01 UTC
No?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2011-10-30 00:11:45 UTC
And since it hasn't been asked yet on this page: What has the CSM done that's so horrible they need to be replaced?

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#28 - 2011-10-30 00:23:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Lord Zim wrote:


Are you saying, however, that none of the upcoming changes are due to the current CSM's influence?



**** no.
This expansion is CCP trying to rescue their own ass with stuff that THE PLAYERS have been asking for for YEARS because subscriptions suddenly dropped off of the map.



The CSM should not be taking credit for things like "fixing blasters" and "Nerfing Suppers", as if it was somehow their idea.

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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2011-10-30 00:36:07 UTC
Ok, guess we can just disband CSM right now then, we obviously don't need them.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#30 - 2011-10-30 00:39:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Lord Zim wrote:
Ok, guess we can just disband CSM right now then, we obviously don't need them.



I disagree.
We should not do that, we should first replace them with something better.


That better thing does not need to be invented, because all corporations selling something to large groups of people gather "Demographics" and do bean counting. That is what CCP should be doing now, and on a much larger scale then they ever have before.




P.S.
Lord you should stop hating on the CSM...












...& aren't out of context word games fun!

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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2011-11-01 17:55:55 UTC
So how many questions do you anticipate a normal poll should have? And would these polls be an ingame thing, or something to do during login?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

MaiLina KaTar
Katar Corp
#32 - 2011-11-01 18:46:53 UTC  |  Edited by: MaiLina KaTar
Lord Zim wrote:
So how many questions do you anticipate a normal poll should have? And would these polls be an ingame thing, or something to do during login?

Personally I'd take the "during login" option. One question per poll. Possibly even in dialog form i.e. mandatory.

Yeah I know that would spawn some hate intially but once the designers at CCP start taking poll results into account I believe people would realize how drastically it improves their game, how efficient this kind of feedback loop is, and praise it as the best thing since sliced bread.

We do that sort of thing in my company with people who are really really good at datamining and these sorts of things and it works great (although we don't make it mandatory, yet). Design has direct access to sites where poll results are being presented pretty much in realtime, and they've become a central tool in their day to day business. Dealing with some 3.2m customers worldwide it seems to be the right thing to do.
You want the feedback loop between your customers and your designers to be as tight as humanly possible. Whatever entitiy you add to that loop can dilute the flow of information and channel it in ways you don't anticipate and / or intend, thereby reducing the efficiency of the whole thing.

Looking at the whole CSM thing there are multiple entities doing this. First you have only a tiny fraction of your customers electing a council, and then that council channels information with a very strong bias. It then relays that information to a few persons within the company, you then relay it over to where it matters, again with a bias.
This is just bound to fail and it does. In my opinion people, especially those involved in the whole thing, don't even realize how much it actually fails to handle the task it was created for.

Rewards aren't the right approach. People should be more than happy to take the polls based on their positive impact on the game. And that will happen if CCP put some competent people in charge of this. Statistics and polling is a complex field. You need some expertise in this field if you want to get meaningful results. You certainly don't do this with a bunch of armchair politicians.
Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2011-11-01 18:58:25 UTC
Yes, because the best way to get a reliable, well thought out opinion on something is to stop people playing the game until they've answered. Everyone will definitely go research the issue in full before they click a random option.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#34 - 2011-11-01 19:04:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Lord Zim wrote:
So how many questions do you anticipate a normal poll should have? And would these polls be an ingame thing, or something to do during login?



1. A standardized format is not really something that I would claim to be able to come up with spur of the moment. In my OP I simply gave one possible example. Many formats are possible.



2. If it is a website attached to these forums, or if it is something that I can bring up in game like the map or esc options, the result would be the same. So it does not matter.



If I had a choice... I'd say in game or a new website all together, because too many people have been repelled from these forums forever.

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Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#35 - 2011-11-01 19:07:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
QF win.

MaiLina KaTar wrote:


Looking at the whole CSM thing there are multiple entities doing this. First you have only a tiny fraction of your customers electing a council, and then that council channels information with a very strong bias. It then relays that information to a few persons within the company, you then relay it over to where it matters, again with a bias.



& that is what is wrong with the CSM.



It is not the people in it, or the people voting for it... what is "wrong" with it is simply by design. You can't allow a marketing gimmick named the "counsel of stellar management" to actually make game changing recommendations to developers. The Developers need to figure out what the players want through statistics and demographic gathering, and they need to be committed to doing so in house.

Or they need to hire professionals who can do it for them.



... I sense a new thread in general coming! Big smile

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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2011-11-01 19:26:25 UTC
The problem I see with the polls is that if it's in-game, people like me (who'll make more isk than whatever poll can generate when logged out) will just flat out ignore it. If it's during login, people like me'll get pissed off and just select whatever they need to select just to get past it. It's not called polls online.

As to this:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
QF win.

MaiLina KaTar wrote:


Looking at the whole CSM thing there are multiple entities doing this. First you have only a tiny fraction of your customers electing a council, and then that council channels information with a very strong bias. It then relays that information to a few persons within the company, you then relay it over to where it matters, again with a bias.



& that there is what is wrong with the CSM.


It is not the people in it, or the people voting for it... what is "wrong" with it is simply by design. You can't allow a marketing gimmick named the "counsel of stellar management" to actually make game changing recommendations to developers. The Developers need to figure out what the players want through statistics and demographic gathering.

So you've spent 9 pages evading answering exactly this question, and finally, when MaiLina KaTar does the job for you, you jump on it?

Ok.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

MaiLina KaTar
Katar Corp
#37 - 2011-11-01 20:39:35 UTC  |  Edited by: MaiLina KaTar
Yeep wrote:
Yes, because the best way to get a reliable, well thought out opinion on something is to stop people playing the game until they've answered. Everyone will definitely go research the issue in full before they click a random option.

Useless sarcasm aside, yes it is. As long as you don't spam polls and as long as you keep the questions to the point and simple it works very well.

Surveys always have noise (see Lod Zim's post for some reasons) and there are always certain factors you're going to have to deal with. And that's precisely the reason why you hire smart people for the job and don't hand it off to a bunch of biased nerds after having them elected by a bunch of biased nerds.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2011-11-01 20:46:19 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
in-game polls is going to be ignored by people like me who can't even be arsed to make a proper character portrait on more than 1 out of 5 chars. The rest are just randomized to get through it as soon as possible, and even then just because it was made mandatory.

They have a literal metric fucktonne of statistics if they need it, in the database itself. Usage pattern, behavioral patterns, economic patterns, over time and in real-time if they so choose. It'll tell them precisely what the players are doing, where, how, and with what.

As to the players' opinions, I suspect you'd find that forums would be about as accurate a themometer for player opinion (if not more so if it's made mandatory for the reasons I've outlined prior re: random clicking just to get out of it) as your polling.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2011-11-01 20:55:09 UTC
Who do you forsee coming up with these polls anyway? I mean CCP could do it but there are plenty of issues the players are concerned about that CCP doesn't realise are a problem. We could make it so everyone can create one but then the system will be full of "Vote yes to give all yeeps free titans" causing massive voter apathy. I guess what we really need is some group of people who can filter the moronic requests from the sensible ones. They should probably be players too so CCP can't sweep embarassing issues under the rug. We could even hold elections to choo.... oooooh wait.
MaiLina KaTar
Katar Corp
#40 - 2011-11-01 21:39:23 UTC  |  Edited by: MaiLina KaTar
Yeep wrote:
Who do you forsee coming up with these polls anyway? I mean CCP could do it but there are plenty of issues the players are concerned about that CCP doesn't realise are a problem....

Stopping to quote right there, because that's one of the crucial things CCP need to fix within their company.
You must, absolutely must have a team of professionals who excel at getting intel about customer concerns. As I said this is not easy, it requires a lot of expertise, and it demands that you dedicate paid employees who are responsible and accountable. This is where good business processes and said tight feedback loops are put to the test.

When it gets to the point where your customers are up in arms cause "you're not listening" you know you ****** up and you need to revise those processes and rebuild them from scratch if necessary.

And once again, no, you do not do this with a bunch of unpaid, biased nerds, elected by a tiny fraction of the customer base, who do it part time using unprofessional means. This is not "Stellar Management" it's a recipe for disaster and the past years provide more than enough evidence.
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