Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Optiaml range of projectiles is even SHORTEr than blaster. But that do not stop people from saying they have huge range... and etc etc..

Autocannon optimal range is not even worth recognizing the existence of. It is pretty much just falloff.

1) Most guns have ~20km optimal (quote)

My reply: No they don't

Your reply: But they can hit to 30km if the target isn't moving!


See what's wrong here?

thats because more projectile ships get better range bonuses.

Its not nonsense. Its fact, also try using the Rage torps as well, only thing you are going to hit for any real damage is a cap ship or a pos, but if a cap ship is moving it will loose damage.

While all other T2 high damage weapon variants will hit for full damage.

Let us not forget that missiles can be killed by smart bombs, out ran by some ships and will most of the time end up with reduced or drastically reduced damage on most ships.

Factor in that webs,TP's ,TE's , TC's will boost guns as well.
Oh and they hit instantly and Minnie guns do come with damage selection.

Lets not forget that caldari ships only get bonus damage to kinetic. So once you use another damage type it puts the ships dps alot less than before.

Now if CCP would drop the kinetic and gave caldari ships a ROF bonus or a damage bonus that would put all damage types of missiles equal to the kinetic then that would be alot better.

Though you can not actually sit here and say missiles are better nor even close to equal in PVP. If that was the case why are pretty much most used PVP ship gun based? Hmmm

All missile fleet pales in comparison to a gun fleet.
Before you try the drake fleets, do understand it was not about missiles being superior, it was about hundreds of people projecting just enough dps with a longer range missile that was nerfed that was put on a ship that had just enough tank to last till reps were put on.

If the drake had guns that reached the distance, it would have been used and would have had superior firepower.
Well given that medium rails do suck, and for the life of me I still cant figure out why after all the changes over the years CCP still avoids buffing them.
Though you can fit a rail ferox, get almost the exact same tank and a slight higher dps but just less the alpha. On a good note, damage will be instant and you have a longer range as well.

Ferox - 232 dps vs Drake 223. With the Ferox having 97km range with 15 km fall off vs Drake 62km range.

Now that i think of it, the heavy missile nerf was pretty harsh. Rails are hitting over 35km farther not including fall off and has higher dps.

When medium rails are out performing another weapon system in range and damage, you know its was an over nerf.

I don't think torps are as bad as people often make them out to be right now, but they do have limited platforms. I think a conservative buff with a minor range increase (maybe 5km base, if even that much) and a higher explosion velocity (because they already have low enough damage against small targets from the radius) would be a good fix.

Please, defenders are in my post just for completion sake and because of the PVE. (I know its a pvp game...moot point anyway)

Now just tell me why you are the one measuring the weight of what its an important in this discussion. Why the valid counter of smartbombs its not important? Why Target Painter helping Guns are not important? Why delayed damage its not important? In short: why you dismiss every single advantage of guns over the missiles as non-issue? All this may be small when considered alone but the sum have a very sensible effect in missile performance.

Missiles are hardly unusable, but its pretty clear that they have several issues that need to be considered. If they need to a boost/nerf its a whole different story, but let's use Features and Ideas Discussion to have a fair discussion about it. There is no reason to entrench yourself behind your bias and refuse to acknowledge every argument against it.

In the same way whatever weapon system the pilot chose to use require skill and fitting investment. I really see no point in dismissing counter to missiles, they are fewer than counter to guns but they are pretty effective and available nonetheless.



Why? There is long range variant of missiles and they must be usable at long range, instead of "missiles can't fight at long range because of delayed damage" situation we need "missiles have delayed damage, but i don't want to wait for it" situation.


[quote limit is odd]In turn, you are dismissing every advantage missiles have over guns as a non issue: no tracking, 100% damage selection, no cap use, no falloff penalty.[/quote limit is odd]

Nope. I am aware of those, but why wold i talk about them alone? No tracking, but explosion stats. 100% damage selection couple with large ammo size. No falloff, but can be outrun (miss things in range). As I said before both of us need to acknowledge what is against our bias to have a fair discussion.





Ok, fine. I agree. But its a moot point since this discussion its not about the basic mechanics but about the details. Lets talk about
where the devil is.



I'm under the impression that some missiles and guns don't have good enough performance in a wider enough variety of situation. Torpedoes are in this situation, Raven and Typhoon are not sturdy enough to be against combat battleship and are not agile enough to compete with attack batlecruisers, stealth bombers are keep in check by the cloackers limitations. We can put all long range medium turrets in this basket also. Lets discuss those.


quote limit is odd]They both have offensive options for delivering full damage, and defensive options for avoiding it. The damage delay is the only real thing holding them back in comparison. I'd be happy to see all flight times reduced by 50 or 75% and speed compensated so range stays the same. Which is pretty much what CCP is doing with cruise missiles, so hopefully that means they will get around to brining it to the other long range sets as well. /quote limit is odd]

That is the lazy 'solution' of turning missile more gunlike. CCP failed to give missiles enough advantage to overcome delayed damage and instead toning it down. Its the same approach they have in reducing fitting and cap consumption of laser. It works, but at the risk of dumbing the game down.
Wold like to see a different set of measures to make Torpedoes (and HAMs) more viable.