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[Odyssey] Capital Rigs

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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#101 - 2013-04-23 18:13:17 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Yes, you are, in terms of fitting your ship! You have equal access to modules, equal access to fitting options, and equal access to rigs.
Now, do you have equal access to the ship hulls themselves? Maybe, maybe not... but this change doesn't alter that in the slightest!

The change assures existing monopoly on supercaps even futher. And this is bad. Rich becomes richer, poor becomes poorer.


I believe this is an exaggeration. Moreless, a supercap oligarchy currently exists. These changes won't change the supercap distribution. It will change the cost effectiveness on rigging Carriers and Dreads, but those are already ubiquitous enough, and die regularly enough, that the change doesn't give any significant advantages to anyone.

It also doesn't change the distribution of wealth in the game. Large rigs remain large rigs. Rigs attached can't be unattached and sold, and few will be. Sure, their ships might become worth a little more, but not enough to matter in the grand scheme of things!
fukier
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2013-04-23 18:13:32 UTC
so when are we getting capital cap injectors? that way i can actually sub a ccc for a nano pump?


At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2013-04-23 18:17:32 UTC  |  Edited by: fukier
Skia Aumer wrote:
The change assures existing monopoly on supercaps even futher. And this is bad. Rich becomes richer, poor becomes poorer.



well i could not afford a super cap before the patch... and still wont after the patch...

so infact it just makes the rich less rich but still stupid rich...

fingers crossed at a tech II heavy bomber... uses citidel torps... on a t3 bc hull...

that way if pl or someother super cap heavy force drops super caps you can counter with heavy bombers that cant really be hurt by titan guns or fbs... (pretty much a sub cap counter to super caps)
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Jureth22
State War Academy
Caldari State
#104 - 2013-04-23 18:17:59 UTC
ccp does what "he" does,and they menage to **** things up everytime
ariana ailith
Dukalin
#105 - 2013-04-23 18:19:47 UTC
How will this affect rigs for Orca's? They're in the market as capital ships but at the same time are not really...
Will they stick with large rigs?
Vibramycin
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#106 - 2013-04-23 18:23:16 UTC
Ripard Teg wrote:
Hi Tallest,

Can you please clarify the T2 question? WILL there be T2 capital rigs? ie, will the invention cycle even work on these new BPOs?

Also, I assume you guys went into this understanding the impact this is going to have on the salvage and rig markets. Can you talk a bit about that? Because it sure seems like this change is going to severely hurt newer players and smaller alliances, enormously raising their risk when actually using capitals. It's also going to severely strain the already absurdly volatile T2 salvage market.

But maybe there are other factors in play that I'm not aware of?


Absolutely this. The rich get richer... I'm about 8 weeks out of flying a dread well and having the money to fit it up right... Now all the old, rich players have t2 rigged toys and I'm stuck.


SIMPLE(ISH) SOLUTION:
all the rigs on caps dissasemble into their components (which are dropped in cargo hold/hangar as appropriate). Warn everybody repeatedly in advance so capital pilots can make plans for re-rigging. The cap rig BPOs can be seeded well in advance of this "large rigs fall off of cap ships" date to make transition quick and easy.

This solution slightly hurts older players, but when the choice is completely gouging younger players/smaller alliances or slightly hurting old players/big alliances... I sure hope CCP knows which way to make that decision...
Callic Veratar
#107 - 2013-04-23 18:23:38 UTC
I'm not sure how the argument that this increases the value of supercaps is valid. What sane alliance would sell 20 supercaps to make 100B off rigs? Considering the first thing they'd need to do is buy/build new supercaps to replace the ones they lost which would cost an extra 4B-5B each to be T2 rigged. Alternately, you could save the money and use T1 rigs, ending up with something not as good.
Nolove Trader
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#108 - 2013-04-23 18:24:16 UTC
ariana ailith wrote:
How will this affect rigs for Orca's? They're in the market as capital ships but at the same time are not really...
Will they stick with large rigs?


As far a I remember CCP sees the Orca more as a BS-sized vessel than a capital.

Some clarification from CCP would be really appreciated though.
Fel Wrath
Crossfire Incorporated
#109 - 2013-04-23 18:26:34 UTC
Vibramycin wrote:
Ripard Teg wrote:
Hi Tallest,

Can you please clarify the T2 question? WILL there be T2 capital rigs? ie, will the invention cycle even work on these new BPOs?

Also, I assume you guys went into this understanding the impact this is going to have on the salvage and rig markets. Can you talk a bit about that? Because it sure seems like this change is going to severely hurt newer players and smaller alliances, enormously raising their risk when actually using capitals. It's also going to severely strain the already absurdly volatile T2 salvage market.

But maybe there are other factors in play that I'm not aware of?


Absolutely this. The rich get richer... I'm about 8 weeks out of flying a dread well and having the money to fit it up right... Now all the old, rich players have t2 rigged toys and I'm stuck.


SIMPLE(ISH) SOLUTION:
all the rigs on caps dissasemble into their components (which are dropped in cargo hold/hangar as appropriate). Warn everybody repeatedly in advance so capital pilots can make plans for re-rigging. The cap rig BPOs can be seeded well in advance of this "large rigs fall off of cap ships" date to make transition quick and easy.

This solution slightly hurts older players, but when the choice is completely gouging younger players/smaller alliances or slightly hurting old players/big alliances... I sure hope CCP knows which way to make that decision...



Shhhhh! I'm trying to make some money off this!
Vibramycin
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#110 - 2013-04-23 18:33:18 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Yes, you are, in terms of fitting your ship! You have equal access to modules, equal access to fitting options, and equal access to rigs.
Now, do you have equal access to the ship hulls themselves? Maybe, maybe not... but this change doesn't alter that in the slightest!

The change assures existing monopoly on supercaps even futher. And this is bad. Rich becomes richer, poor becomes poorer.


I believe this is an exaggeration. Moreless, a supercap oligarchy currently exists. These changes won't change the supercap distribution. It will change the cost effectiveness on rigging Carriers and Dreads, but those are already ubiquitous enough, and die regularly enough, that the change doesn't give any significant advantages to anyone.

It also doesn't change the distribution of wealth in the game. Large rigs remain large rigs. Rigs attached can't be unattached and sold, and few will be. Sure, their ships might become worth a little more, but not enough to matter in the grand scheme of things!


um, t2 trimarks on a cap (to pick one example) will be nominally worth something like 1.5 billion each after patch. that's not "a little more" in my book. Not for carriers/dreads anyway.

You don't need to unattach the rigs to get value out of them. Unless you rigged completely weird, you WILL find a buyer who wants those rigs and will be able to get top price for it. This isn't like somebody trying to sell a raven with t2 trimarks saying boohoo nobody will pay me for my rigs. Fittings are more standard, choices usually more clear, and the number of permutations MUCH lower (17 combat cap ships total vs >250 subcaps)
Mrs Winter
Insane Shadow Boxers
#111 - 2013-04-23 18:41:10 UTC
ariana ailith wrote:
How will this affect rigs for Orca's? They're in the market as capital ships but at the same time are not really...
Will they stick with large rigs?


Good question!
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#112 - 2013-04-23 18:47:29 UTC
Mrs Winter wrote:
Its not really. You cannot take the rigs off the ships. And its not like you can sell your rigged Super/Titan for profit....

Yes, I can.
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#113 - 2013-04-23 18:50:31 UTC
I read the topic and my first though was LOL! ****** rig manufacturers right there! now rigging T2 battleships will become 10 times more cheaper... but salvagers will become rich with the amount of salvage that stuff will take..
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#114 - 2013-04-23 18:53:20 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Mrs Winter wrote:
Its not really. You cannot take the rigs off the ships. And its not like you can sell your rigged Super/Titan for profit....

Yes, I can.


to clarify - make/buy load of caps
T2 rig them prepatch
sell postpatch

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Draconic Slayer
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#115 - 2013-04-23 18:53:58 UTC
Schmell wrote:
Fango Mango wrote:
Krell Kroenen wrote:
Ivana Twinkle wrote:
Because those large trimark II's just aren't expensive enough.


Well with these rigs consuming 5 times the resources I imagine that will drive up the costs of other rigs as well, at least a wee bit.


I imagine this will drop the prices for battleship sized trimark IIs. No one is going to spend 4.5 billion to rig a carrier or a dread. Therefore demand will drop and prices will drop.

-FM



Tech 2 large trimarks are exclusively supercap busincess. Nobody does that for dreads and carriers.

So demand for tech 2 trimarks will likely go down to around zero. What that will do to prices? Who knows


What do you mean no one T2 Trimarks dreads? Of course we do.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#116 - 2013-04-23 18:55:37 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
You know, an actual balance concern is that this makes armor caps that much stronger in some small way. I'm told remote rep augmentors don't work for caps right now, but presumably a capital version will exist as a result of this change. That's a rather large deal for triage carriers, except there is no equivalent for remote shield boosters.

Draconic Slayer wrote:

What do you mean no one T2 Trimarks dreads? Of course we do.

Roll

People in wormholes and I guess maybe some lowsec pilots do, because the numbers involved are smaller.

Bloc dread pilots don't, though, because the extra EHP is rarely a matter of "do I live or die" but rather "how many extra seconds do I live?"

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#117 - 2013-04-23 18:59:19 UTC
mynnna wrote:
You know, an actual balance concern is that this makes armor caps that much stronger in some small way. I'm told remote rep augmentors don't work for caps right now, but presumably a capital version will exist as a result of this change. That's a rather large deal for triage carriers, except there is no equivalent for remote shield boosters.


I'm fairly sure that the RRAs already work on capital RAR mods.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2013-04-23 18:59:44 UTC  |  Edited by: fukier
mynnna wrote:
You know, an actual balance concern is that this makes armor caps that much stronger in some small way. I'm told remote rep augmentors don't work for caps right now, but presumably a capital version will exist as a result of this change. That's a rather large deal for triage carriers, except there is no equivalent for remote shield boosters.

Draconic Slayer wrote:

What do you mean no one T2 Trimarks dreads? Of course we do.

Roll

People in wormholes and I guess maybe some lowsec pilots do, because the numbers involved are smaller.

Bloc dread pilots don't, though, because the extra EHP is rarely a matter of "do I live or die" but rather "how many extra seconds do I live?"


whats thier effectivness vrs ccc?

perhaps the slight increase is ok incomparison to delayed reps? or does that not really matter since you are not going to alpha a super cap...
Gypsio III wrote:

I'm fairly sure that the RRAs already work on capital RAR mods.



can someone confirm this?
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Tarnia Xavian
Redheads and Railguns
#119 - 2013-04-23 18:59:59 UTC
Killing capitals will be even more satisfying after June.
Mynas Atoch
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#120 - 2013-04-23 19:04:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Mynas Atoch
The simple solution is to detach any rigs of the wrong size on all ships, and stick them in the ship's cargo hold.

This should have been done when the original rig split into small, medium and large happened, but CCP were a lot less confident in their database teams ability to do this sort of thing without buggering it up back then.

Since then multiple rollouts of changes to ships have taken place where this has been the method, including changes to supercarrier drone bays.