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Caldari and their "damage" bonus to missiles
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Seraph Castillon
Death Metal Frogs
Ribbit.
#21 - 2013-04-23 07:01:58 UTC
Yes yes, and Hybrid gunboats only get their Kin/Therm. Laser boats only get their EM/Therm.

Your Cerb can still switch damage types, even if it comes with loss of a bonus. Laser and hybrid boats can't.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-04-23 07:31:44 UTC
Garresh wrote:
Drake fleets used to be all over the place. Now caldari has fallen from grace.


Drake has fallen out of grace, Caldari not so much. You have to understand that previously, Drake was the only nanoable missile BC, a role Cyclone performs better nowadays, it had better damage projection (the only straight nerf) and the Cruisers were far worse. Nowadays it's still a very good brick, but flying a brick usually isn't very fun. That's why many that used to fly a Drake will now opt for either a Cyclone or a Caracal or even a tier 3 for damage projection.

I'm actually interested to see how the Odyssey changes will shift the balance, what with Precision Cruises now able to tear cruisers apart from outside their reach.
Kasutra
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#23 - 2013-04-23 09:00:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kasutra
Dyphorus wrote:
No other race gets perfect damage type selection. The kinetic bonus keeps things in check. Having a full, bonused, damage for all types of missiles would basically make missiles the end all be all of PvE.

Meh. Selectable damage types would mean you'd see more Tengus and Drakes shooting Sansha and BR. Minmatar and Gallente are firing at all kinds of rats anyway, the biggest PvE impact would, I think, be that Amarr would become an even bigger outlier when it comes to rat selection.

A thing that would change is that I couldn't refit or reship as specifically when I see a Drake gang coming.

Stan'din wrote:
Gallente and Amarr have been in the sun for years

Garresh wrote:
Its time for gallente and amarr to have their time in the sun.


Lol
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#24 - 2013-04-23 09:08:07 UTC
Missile fleets in larger engagements fell out of favour as firewalls became more prevalent and larger entitys executed them more effectively, not because missiles are bad.

Drakes are still amazing and quite a few Caldari ships have ROF bonuses not kin bonuses anyways.
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#25 - 2013-04-23 09:46:56 UTC
DHB WildCat wrote:
or gallente drone boats only getting damage bonus to Gallente drones (thermic).
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Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-04-23 09:51:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Josilin du Guesclin
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Neither Caldari nor missiles suck in pvp. Kinetic bonus makes sense in that it limits the power of the ship. Note that the damage selection is still possible, it just comes with a drawback. For instance, take Cyclone vs. Drake: one has a universal rof bonus and 5 launchers, while the other a 5% kinetic damage bonus and 6 launchers.

If we run the numbers, this is what we get:

Cyclone has 5 x 1.33 = 6.65 effective turrets

Drake has 6 x 1 = 6 effective turrets while shooting non-kinetic and 6 x 1.25 = 7.5 effective turrets while shooting kinetic.

This gives both ships their role: dps-wise, the Drake will be superior when shooting at kinetic weak targets, while the Cyclone will be superior against all others.
Once you count the large done bay and bandwidth and the possibility of two guns the Cyclone does very nearly the same DPS as a Drake using kinetic - despite your maths being off (Drakes actually get 6 x 1.5 = 9 launcher equivalents with kinetic). That's with HAMs. With HMLs the Cyclone has the same or possibly better because fitting is CPU tight and the Cyclone has more CPU than the Drake (they must have packed a lot of dudes with abacii into that 'clone).

The main thing is that the Cyclone can give up a small amount of its DPS for utility in its highs, while the Drake can still mount a monster tank whilst having some utility in its mids.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-04-23 10:17:24 UTC
[quote=Josilin du Guesclin]Once you count the large done bay and bandwidth and the possibility of two guns the Cyclone does very nearly the same DPS as a Drake using kinetic - despite your maths being off (Drakes actually get 6 x 1.5 = 9 launcher equivalents with kinetic).

You're right, of course, for some reason I still had the old bonus in my head. I've updated the post.

I agree on the rest, though I'd point out that while Cyclone does have a larger drone bay, in my experience a flight of lights and a flight of something else (such as ecm or webbers) is more useful overall. But, as you said, more flexibility.
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-04-23 13:10:37 UTC
This is a throw back to EvE 2004

The plan then was Amarr = EM bonused, Gal = Therm bonused, Mini = EXP bonused and Cal = Kin bonused.

No other races have racial only damage bonuses any longer.

Amarr = EM/Therm bonused + Rainbow from drones
Gal = Therm/Kin Bonused + Rainbow from drones
Mini = Full rainbow bonuses

Cal = KIN bonused on some ships , Rainbow on others.

Cal missile boats are the only ships in game which come with ammo restictions ( Bonuses and ammo that clash ).

Its time for this to end as damage type selection is as important to missile combat as range and tracking is to gun combat.


Fully supported.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#29 - 2013-04-23 13:15:40 UTC
TL;DR: "buff my ships plox"

I should buy an Ishtar.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#30 - 2013-04-24 01:16:23 UTC
Seraph Castillon wrote:
Yes yes, and Hybrid gunboats only get their Kin/Therm. Laser boats only get their EM/Therm.

Your Cerb can still switch damage types, even if it comes with loss of a bonus. Laser and hybrid boats can't.



its not all roses for projectile either.


20-25% while nice does not turn barrage into a mega ammo of doom. And unless te'd, ambit'd out to wtf level its not giving HML range either for a medium gun. And since this a kinetic whine thread...worth noting a high kinetic resist helps mitigates 50% of its component damage.


And changing ammo is not the end of the world for caldari I agree. Some people need to think outside the EFT box. yes its less paper damage in EFT. However if your target(s) saw you coming or guessed before undocking and went kinetic resist heavy that means they should have another hole to hit. So you can shoot your kinetics at a 90% resisted ship to see its damage mitigated. or you can run an "off type" ammo that eases through a say 40% resist. the latter may give better applied damage.

Why I wished more missile peeps actually used guns. packing 2-3 typs of ammo is SOP.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-04-24 02:20:30 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
This is a throw back to EvE 2004

The plan then was Amarr = EM bonused, Gal = Therm bonused, Mini = EXP bonused and Cal = Kin bonused.

No other races have racial only damage bonuses any longer.

Amarr = EM/Therm bonused + Rainbow from drones
Gal = Therm/Kin Bonused + Rainbow from drones
Mini = Full rainbow bonuses

Cal = KIN bonused on some ships , Rainbow on others.

Cal missile boats are the only ships in game which come with ammo restictions ( Bonuses and ammo that clash ).

Its time for this to end as damage type selection is as important to missile combat as range and tracking is to gun combat.


Fully supported.

I wouldn't really call drones full damage selection as they have tradeoffs including changes in raw damage output for each damage type.
Fortis88
Caldari Salvage Corp.
#32 - 2013-04-24 02:33:49 UTC
I just want to see a little more dps for my rockets. I can get more dps out of a Merlin (with 3 hybrid turrets) than I can out of a tech II Hawk (with 4 rocket launchers). That is depressing. And I am level 5 for all missile skills / gunnery skills (this is not a variable.)
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#33 - 2013-04-24 03:57:47 UTC
Fortis88 wrote:
I just want to see a little more dps for my rockets. I can get more dps out of a Merlin (with 3 hybrid turrets) than I can out of a tech II Hawk (with 4 rocket launchers). That is depressing. And I am level 5 for all missile skills / gunnery skills (this is not a variable.)


More dps would OP rockets, they have excellent projection for frigate weapon, allowing you to kite comfortably in scram range with little assistance from mods/rigs. The Hookbill, Hawk, Kestrel and Vengeance are all good ships that see decent use, with Hookbill being one of the best frigates around.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#34 - 2013-04-24 11:37:27 UTC
Fortis88 wrote:
I just want to see a little more dps for my rockets. I can get more dps out of a Merlin (with 3 hybrid turrets) than I can out of a tech II Hawk (with 4 rocket launchers). That is depressing. And I am level 5 for all missile skills / gunnery skills (this is not a variable.)


Shorter-range weapon system in having more DPS shocker. Straight
Noisrevbus
#35 - 2013-04-24 12:51:11 UTC
When it comes to ship design I've become more and more of a conservative lately.

The problem isn't really that Missile ships tend to have a KN bonus ontop of a selectable type weapon system.

The problem is that there are other systems that have an ALL bonus ontop of selectable type weapon systems.

The game was better in the past when there was a true rock-paper-scissor design to compensate for flavour of the month issues. That's a much more potent way to design the game. Give everything to everyone and we will just see more complaints about the things falling behind, less redundancy in the system and more effort required to maintain tolerable balance.

I for one enjoyed the fact that there used to be a balance between racial resists and racial damage types (where any fully selectable ship had that as a niche).

If anything, nerf Projectiles back to a more EX-prone system instead.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-04-24 12:56:59 UTC
Garresh wrote:
Drake fleets used to be all over the place. Now caldari has fallen from grace.
Minmatar also got heavily nerfed.

Honestly, as a minmatar player, just deal with it. Not trying to insult but caldari and minmatar were op for a while. Its time for gallente and amarr to have their time in the sun. I'd you enjoy the ship despite its faults you'll fly it anyways. Again not trying to be rude here, but caldari are still viable in many ships. They're just a tad on the weak side.


This is horrible balance, have a few races suck while the other two shine for a few years?

What are you on?
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-04-24 12:59:38 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Seraph Castillon wrote:
Yes yes, and Hybrid gunboats only get their Kin/Therm. Laser boats only get their EM/Therm.

Your Cerb can still switch damage types, even if it comes with loss of a bonus. Laser and hybrid boats can't.



its not all roses for projectile either.


20-25% while nice does not turn barrage into a mega ammo of doom. And unless te'd, ambit'd out to wtf level its not giving HML range either for a medium gun. And since this a kinetic whine thread...worth noting a high kinetic resist helps mitigates 50% of its component damage.


And changing ammo is not the end of the world for caldari I agree. Some people need to think outside the EFT box. yes its less paper damage in EFT. However if your target(s) saw you coming or guessed before undocking and went kinetic resist heavy that means they should have another hole to hit. So you can shoot your kinetics at a 90% resisted ship to see its damage mitigated. or you can run an "off type" ammo that eases through a say 40% resist. the latter may give better applied damage.

Why I wished more missile peeps actually used guns. packing 2-3 typs of ammo is SOP.


What kind of lame PvP are you engaging in where your targets know what you have, and modify their fit to fight you before undocking?
Capt Retard
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-04-24 13:46:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Capt Retard
WHY THE FK DO DRAFTS FK UP EVERY POST I MAKE.
feihcsiM
THE B0YS
#39 - 2013-04-24 14:06:16 UTC
Probable result of extending the kinetic damage bonus to all missile flavours: Condors, Hookbills, Hawks, Caracals, and the ubiquitous Drakes would instantly become best in class (if some of them aren't already). Tengus would be the only worthwhile ship for level 4s. The Kestrel, Breacher, Bellicose, Cyclone etc etc would be instantly obsolete. The tracking disruptor market would crash P

I'm not saying the kinetic only bonus should necessarily remain, but if it goes some serious thought is needed as to what it should be replaced with.

It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-04-24 14:21:51 UTC
feihcsiM wrote:
Probable result of extending the kinetic damage bonus to all missile flavours: Condors, Hookbills, Hawks, Caracals, and the ubiquitous Drakes would instantly become best in class (if some of them aren't already). Tengus would be the only worthwhile ship for level 4s. The Kestrel, Breacher, Bellicose, Cyclone etc etc would be instantly obsolete. The tracking disruptor market would crash P

I'm not saying the kinetic only bonus should necessarily remain, but if it goes some serious thought is needed as to what it should be replaced with.



You sound like Fox News.
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