Player Features and Ideas Discussion

What about leaving a system via a Wormhole..... the 'system' has know way of knowing you left, so why don't you stay up in local?


I agree with you about zero local would not benefit the game. People already don't talk that much to each other and it would really be an uninviting place for noobs.


What I would like to see is a WH style delayed local or a removal of local for cloaked vessels.

If you activate cloak, you drop off local.
But to balance, you loose access to local, so while cloaked you cant use it for intel.

This would end AFK cloakers, because without showing up on local, they cant scare the nullbears into hiding in stations.

To gather intel, cloakers would have to work more, fly around, risk dropping probes, have the foresight to setup bookmarks etc.

Local residents would have to be more attuned to what's going on around them, pay attention more, fly with support, leave bubbles on the warpins of their grid (is this possible??? just a thought) - not a unacceptable proposal for what's supposed to be Zero Security Space.

Cloaker dropping a cyno seems to be a concern so why not tie it in to the targeting delay that cloaks force on ships??? (I leave this idea to people with more experience of these than me)

Yeah I'm a bit unsure about that one too, but maybe he mixed up the corp names?

/c

Of course you didn't mention hot drops when using WH's to talk about local, how can you use WH space as an example when the major way of projecting force in 0.0 does not even exist there, and you are telling me in that statement that you can use intelligence and strategies gleaned from WH space, really? Using WH space to compare to 0.0 is irrelevent because of that!

Bots are getting removed from the game by CCP, it is not relevent, secondly the use of bot to describe someone who opposes the removal of local is to make people look down on their argument, I am not and have never botted and despise those that do.

The name of your corp is similar, sorry!

Here the thing, the current system is balance. CCP doesn't want to touch the current system cause it SO BALANCED that they will have to edit a rather....Well simple put, they will have to change and edit a crap ton of things,

You can't nerf cloak without nerfing local.
you can't nerf local without nerfing cloak
You can't nerf local without making new intel tools
you can't make new intel tools without nerfing local

It so balance, that it will require quite a bit of work if something is to happen to local or cloak, or the other intel tools, so it created quite a problem, and the problem is what some call the bandage bridge

currently we have all these mechanics as bandaids over the problem, local was made...Then was cloak to balance, then cyno to bypass, then super caps became dedicated on cynos because they could no longer use super gates, caps were all kicked out to low and null sec.

Do you see where I'm going? We can't make a change due to one simple problem, if you change one thing, then in turn you must change all host of other things that depend on each other.

Things involving local are balance, which is the problem we run into, when people wish to make a change to cloak, or local, they fail to make a change to the other side. This cause a unbalance in the scale. Things are balance, but people don't like the current balance, but people being people, are only willing to change the balance in a way that most favor them.

This pretty much sums it up.. the issue here though is that a balance between local and cloaking as it stands now isn't fun because if local is around you will always have afk cloaky ships. Cynos and force projection i don't see as a related issue, 10 guys jumping from gate to anom will kill a faction bs just as easily as 30 guys from a cyno. Now the question of IF 30 guys should be able to be moved from 5ly away directly into battle is another question entirely and the content of another thread. I personally would like to live in a null sec without local it would make things more exciting easier to bait opposing fleets.. my only concern is that fleets might have to move slower just to sort out all the space junk that may or may not be a pilot or a posed up empty ship.

My 2 Cents

I find it surprising that when people talk about AFK cloakies they ignore the issue of cyno's and force projection, in my experience, the biggest concern was not what they had in system, but what they could cyno in, I am sure there are others here who have been AFK camped and could put this chap straight!

EDIT: Though if it was this guy http://www.eve-razor.com/killboard/?a=pilot_detail&plt_ext_id=182560649 I might reconsider!!!

You are a High Sec Merc, so if someone was AFK camping you it would be as effective as lighting a cyno in a WH!!!

Without local you wont see the AFK cloaker. The psychological warfare aspect of AFK cloaking, which is the primary reason for AFK cloaking, will be eliminated.

Of course, it is too strong a solution IMO. In the end people would not carebear in null. And almost every null pilot carebears to some extent (you need isk to PVP).

Of course, wormholes have a delayed local which is almost the same thing. However wormholes don't have gates. And you can't look on the in game map or Dotlan and see how many pilots are in a worm hole or how many rats have been killed. In null you can and people will use that to go find ratters to kill.

So in the end there wont be much carebearing in null, and probably not much PVP either.

Now having a cloaked pilot removed from local when the cloak is activated along with a nerf to cloaks, e.g. a timer or something along those lines would accomplish much of what removing local would in regards to AFK cloaking. Even if the timer is for an hour, if I activate my cloak and go afk I get nothing...no kills, no resource denial, no intel, nothing. The locals can happily carebear away while I'm AFK.

And since cloaked pilots would be visible when jumping in and out of a system those engaged in carebear activities would have some warning. Intel channels could still be used. Both sides give up something and both sides get something. The active cloaking pilot has a better chance of finding people who aren't paying attention not checking intel channels, not using alliance chat, etc. Those who want or need to spend time carebearing wont have to worry about some doofus sitting in their preferred system while off watching netflix.



You could, but it would have to be active intel. That is you sit cloaked a ways off the gate and report what is coming through. Or you use Dscan to report intel. And this shouldn't be a problem because a pilot who is cloaked and AFK gathers no intel either. Some ability to gather intel for the cloaked pilot should be retained.

but it will also kill bot ratting :D

Wow....

Here's the deal with local: It provides infallible information on EVERYONE in system. This is extremely powerful, as it allows you to quickly identify how many hostiles are around.

To the PvPers, it allows you to assess a system, and determine if there are targets to engage. This is important for both consensual and non-consensual PvP, and in many ways, determines if you WILL CONSENT to PvP. I've taken many fleets to "busy systems" just to flash my ******* about and ideally poke the eyes out of anyone coming to look. Try getting a quality fight against your 20ish man cruiser/bc gang if you don't have local!

To the Carebears (people simply avoiding ship-to-ship combat), it allows them to assess how risky their system is, and take steps to avoid being caught (cause they won't survive if they are!).

Local is pretty much essential for determining the level of risk to your system, which is both a wonderful thing, and a terrible thing.

It's wonderful, because the most tedious part of PvP is finding targets to shoot. A tool that enables you to efficiently find fights is an excellent thing for the game.

However, it's terrible because EvE's player base has become more, and more, and more risk adverse as the game's progressed. We continue to see posts like:

Oh no, I can't rat in nullsec because there is an afk cloaker in system, and ratting in cheaper ships, or in a group is terribly inefficient compared to using my carrier / faction fit Vargur/Macharial/Nightmare/Tengu/...

Oh no, my barge was suicide ganked even though it had no tank... give me a buff, nerf ganking.

Oh no, my mission ship was suicide ganked, even though it had 10b in faction mods on it... it's not fair...

Oh no, I can't PvP in a 5 man HAC gang without 4 logi's to support it.

People refuse to rat because of an AFK cloaker in system! People refuse to engage a target unless they have such overwhelming force that they not only win the fight, but take little in losses! This mentality is what's destroying the game, and it's ever-present in nullsec, lowsec, and highsec! Losses are, and have always been, a major part of playing EvE, yet the current player base seems to view losses as unacceptable. Rather than playing to minimize the impact of their losses, players seek to all together prevent losses. This is straight up wrong, and a ****-poor mentality for this game. Everyone, be they in highsec or nullsec, should operate under the assumption that some day, any ship they undock in will be destroyed.

Back to the "remove local" topic: Most people think about removing local in a rather short sighted sense: How will this help me? If it's gone, I can use a cloaky to catch more ratters. Or if it's gone, I'll fall victim to more roamers! And they judge it solely on these merits.

The intel system (which primarily consists of Local), needs to be judged on a game-wide merit basis. What this game needs, is for people to ACCEPT LOSSES as an everyday thing, rather than simply AVOID LOSSES. The risk/rewards need to be balanced, with this in mind. WH works without local, but for two reasons: a.) The rewards of W-space are high enough that it's profitable to live there even with the additional losses "delayed local" provides. b.) System accessibility is very limited.

While I support revamping the intel system (be it a 20 seconds delay before ships appear in "local chat" when in k-space, to a complete revamp of the intel system), the rewards need to be balanced in a manner with ship losses being an expected modis operandi. And I don't care where you live, this "notion" should be hammered into every EvE player (ideally by the sounds of blasters, autocannons, rockets, and lasers!!)!!!