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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

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Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2041 - 2013-04-20 18:21:27 UTC
ExAstra wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
ExAstra wrote:

The Hyperion has no reason to be plated. You fit it with a helltank and go on a rampage.

Edit: Sidenote, I don't see how the first iteration of Megathron "worked" if the same issue you're complaining about plagued it. ie Plates making it slow and hard to use blasters with any effectiveness. It worked because it (maybe) had a neut? Nope. Because it was faster? Also nope... Because it had higher DPS? Wait, nope...


you need to listen better here i was talking about the megathron first iteration on this forum i.e. about a week ago.

"Listen better"? This is a forum. We read here. All you said was "the first iteration worked" which I (apparently) misinterpreted to mean the original design. "Proposal" would have been a much better choice of vocabulary.

So how do you think the first balance proposal was better? Because it was "more likely to be shield tanked"?


Yes a shield tanked mega with a utility high allows it to serve its attack role properly although i still think it needs more speed and agility but at least with nanos you can get somewhere but a dual plated/trimarked version is just a slow brick with pitiful range. that most things can outrange and outmaneuver.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Mata Hotaki
aussie1hi brett Corporation
#2042 - 2013-04-20 19:18:35 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Mata Hotaki wrote:
If there is no weapon bonus, fit projectiles. There is a reason why people came up with this rule.

This rule is silly (and AC do not have more tracking than blasters, actually, neutron blasters have 20% more tracking than 800mm AC).

People fit AC when they don't care about their weapon, or don't want to use cap for them.



Amazing. You will say anything to prove your point, even if you are flat out wrong.

Actual stats (copy-paste from eve-wiki.net):

Optimal Falloff CPU PG Tracking Activation
800mm AC II: 4,800m 19,200m 41tf 2,200MW 0.0432 rad/s 0 Energy
Neutron Blaster II: 7,200m 10,000m 61tf 2363MW 0.0433 rad/s 18.2 Energy

20% more tracking? Really?

With faction high-damage ammo (such as RF EMP) my AC optimal is 50%, but the falloff is unaffected. I am fighting in falloff, which gives me effective range way in excess of 20K, even with crappy skills. And I can choose my damage, and will shoot back even if neuted.

If I fit neutrons (or god forbid electrons), I have to be literally on top of the shootee. At least 10 km closer than with ACs. And I have to track them at *that* range. The difference with ACs will be more than 20%, and *not* in favor of blasters.

In order to fit these wonders of Gallente tech, I need to spend 20 CPU more per gun, and 163 PG more per gun before skills.
Now, with damage bonus, it just might be worth it. If I land a wrecking shot here and there, I might just melt the shootee.
Without damage bonus, and with increased mass, these weapons are horrible and useless.

That's why you only see hybrids on bonused Gallente hulls. And this is why people will only fit autocannons on the new Domi (like they do it on Myrmidons now).

It will be just one more ship where hybrids are useless. As if hybrids needed a nerf.
Ellie McAmber
Dodixie Federal Credit Union
#2043 - 2013-04-20 19:56:20 UTC
After looking at the proposed changes, I completely understand why Gallente BS thread is almost an order of magnitude longer than Minnie or Caldari threads.

The proposed changes are bad, and are an overall nerf to Gallente.


  • Hyperion: it got some love, but it still comes with that active rep bonus. THAT bonus. Recent changes to armor tanking were good, but not *that* good. Why again would I fly a Hype over an Abaddon or Rokh or a Maelstrom?
  • Mega: it's OK. It was not that great to start with, and it is not really being nerfed or buffed - it is just a bit different.
  • Domi: my eyes bleed. Amarr are getting an "I-Win" battleship with the new Geddon. Gallente are getting this sentry boat, which is way worse for most PvP situations, and may be sort of OK for missions/ratting. Before the nerf, this was one of the most fun Gallente ships, and (uncharacteristically) it was fun without being OP.


What is really sad (though typical), the thread has plenty bad posts by missionrunners, who seem to be drooling at the perspective of this uber-sentry Domi. Finally, they will become good at killing rats using their Gallente SP.

Of course, this has nothing to do with good game balance.

Like many people here, I am starting to train Amarr. New Geddon and lazors are totally worth the cross-training.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2044 - 2013-04-20 20:00:04 UTC
eve-wiki is outdated : changes hybrid got a year ago aren't updated.

Anyway, prefer whatever weapon you want, they all deserve to exists for good reasons, but AC being plain better when not bonused is completely wrong. They are better, as I said, when you don't need cap or want versatility (both with damage profile and engagement range).
Mata Hotaki
aussie1hi brett Corporation
#2045 - 2013-04-20 20:13:33 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
eve-wiki is outdated : changes hybrid got a year ago aren't updated.

Anyway, prefer whatever weapon you want, they all deserve to exists for good reasons, but AC being plain better when not bonused is completely wrong. They are better, as I said, when you don't need cap or want versatility (both with damage profile and engagement range).



My bad - they have indeed upped the tracking.

However, the second part of my argument (that is, the necessity to track stuff that is closer) still stands. The hybrid buff just made hybrids competitive with projectiles when fitted on bonused hulls.

Note that the summer changes include a nerf to TEs (meant to fix OP projectiles). Also note that the "new" Domi receives a ship mass nerf.

You are absolutely correct when you explain when to use projectiles. Thing is, most people never want to use cap, and they always want a flexible engagement range and damage profile. Not the qualifiers, "never" and "always".

I for one welcome our projectile-shooting Domi overlords. Unless CCP Rise decides not to nerf the Domi.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2046 - 2013-04-20 20:49:48 UTC
Mata Hotaki wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
eve-wiki is outdated : changes hybrid got a year ago aren't updated.

Anyway, prefer whatever weapon you want, they all deserve to exists for good reasons, but AC being plain better when not bonused is completely wrong. They are better, as I said, when you don't need cap or want versatility (both with damage profile and engagement range).



My bad - they have indeed upped the tracking.

However, the second part of my argument (that is, the necessity to track stuff that is closer) still stands. The hybrid buff just made hybrids competitive with projectiles when fitted on bonused hulls.

Note that the summer changes include a nerf to TEs (meant to fix OP projectiles). Also note that the "new" Domi receives a ship mass nerf.

You are absolutely correct when you explain when to use projectiles. Thing is, most people never want to use cap, and they always want a flexible engagement range and damage profile. Not the qualifiers, "never" and "always".

I for one welcome our projectile-shooting Domi overlords. Unless CCP Rise decides not to nerf the Domi.


lolautos

Do you even pvp?



.
smoking gun81
Doomheim
#2047 - 2013-04-20 21:00:47 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
ExAstra wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
ExAstra wrote:

The Hyperion has no reason to be plated. You fit it with a helltank and go on a rampage.

Edit: Sidenote, I don't see how the first iteration of Megathron "worked" if the same issue you're complaining about plagued it. ie Plates making it slow and hard to use blasters with any effectiveness. It worked because it (maybe) had a neut? Nope. Because it was faster? Also nope... Because it had higher DPS? Wait, nope...


you need to listen better here i was talking about the megathron first iteration on this forum i.e. about a week ago.

"Listen better"? This is a forum. We read here. All you said was "the first iteration worked" which I (apparently) misinterpreted to mean the original design. "Proposal" would have been a much better choice of vocabulary.

So how do you think the first balance proposal was better? Because it was "more likely to be shield tanked"?


Yes a shield tanked mega with a utility high allows it to serve its attack role properly although i still think it needs more speed and agility but at least with nanos you can get somewhere but a dual plated/trimarked version is just a slow brick with pitiful range. that most things can outrange and outmaneuver.


Getting really old really fast this shield tank mega thing you and others got a fetish for...

I'm more happy with the current proposal than the previous one less chance of a shield tank, Although I still want 8 turrets on one but I can deal with just flying a vindicator all the time to get it.

as soon as I get home I will have more of an insight to what further changes I think the mega should have once tested.
Mata Hotaki
aussie1hi brett Corporation
#2048 - 2013-04-20 21:36:55 UTC
Roime wrote:


lolautos

Do you even pvp?




I do, and typically have two Domis in my hangar.

One is usually fit with neutrons. The other has a full rack of assorted neuts. Both very cookie-cutter.

After the nerf, the benefits of lolautos will likely outweigh the benefits of lolneutrons. Especially since the Domi will be less maneuverable.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2049 - 2013-04-20 21:44:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
smoking gun81 wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
ExAstra wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
ExAstra wrote:

The Hyperion has no reason to be plated. You fit it with a helltank and go on a rampage.

Edit: Sidenote, I don't see how the first iteration of Megathron "worked" if the same issue you're complaining about plagued it. ie Plates making it slow and hard to use blasters with any effectiveness. It worked because it (maybe) had a neut? Nope. Because it was faster? Also nope... Because it had higher DPS? Wait, nope...


you need to listen better here i was talking about the megathron first iteration on this forum i.e. about a week ago.

"Listen better"? This is a forum. We read here. All you said was "the first iteration worked" which I (apparently) misinterpreted to mean the original design. "Proposal" would have been a much better choice of vocabulary.

So how do you think the first balance proposal was better? Because it was "more likely to be shield tanked"?


Yes a shield tanked mega with a utility high allows it to serve its attack role properly although i still think it needs more speed and agility but at least with nanos you can get somewhere but a dual plated/trimarked version is just a slow brick with pitiful range. that most things can outrange and outmaneuver.


Getting really old really fast this shield tank mega thing you and others got a fetish for...

I'm more happy with the current proposal than the previous one less chance of a shield tank, Although I still want 8 turrets on one but I can deal with just flying a vindicator all the time to get it.

as soon as I get home I will have more of an insight to what further changes I think the mega should have once tested.


Well lets put this another, how is the mega is an attack battleship when the Hype is faster after you've fitted plates?
If you plated both ships the Hyperion would have more buffer so its better as a plated combat ship... so whats the point in a plated mega?....
At least a shield mega offers you something different ... lots of speed a tanky Talos if you will..

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2050 - 2013-04-20 22:34:38 UTC
Mata Hotaki wrote:
Roime wrote:


lolautos

Do you even pvp?




I do, and typically have two Domis in my hangar.

One is usually fit with neutrons. The other has a full rack of assorted neuts. Both very cookie-cutter.

After the nerf, the benefits of lolautos will likely outweigh the benefits of lolneutrons. Especially since the Domi will be less maneuverable.

Why would you use a Dominix for that? The Armageddon is better for that.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
smoking gun81
Doomheim
#2051 - 2013-04-21 02:11:14 UTC  |  Edited by: smoking gun81
Jonas Sukarala wrote:

Well lets put this another, how is the mega is an attack battleship when the Hype is faster after you've fitted plates?
If you plated both ships the Hyperion would have more buffer so its better as a plated combat ship... so whats the point in a plated mega?....
At least a shield mega offers you something different ... lots of speed a tanky Talos if you will..



Not true ( as I've just got home and tested on duality ) let me share some of my preliminary findings regarding the new gallente line up.

The criteria:

1600 T2 plates x 2
3 x Trimarks
1 x T2 100 MN MWD
Overloaded MWD

The Results:

Dominix = 1132 M/s
Hyperion = 1195 M/s
Megathron = 1281 M/s

Don't get me wrong it could be a bit faster to catch others, But even with a similar fit ( nothing that reduces speed or agility ) the mega would still out run the hyperion 1539 M/s vs 1435 M/s.

On another note I find the mega ( only one I've been playing with fittings for so far ) is lacking in CPU a bit despite the + 20 but then again I've always found it quite low on CPU even before the new proposal.Cry

CCP could we get a better bump in CPU for the mega say to something like 630 ( quite an increase I know ) but we have mods like the reactive armor hardener, micro jump drive and target spectrum breaker ( two of which are modules restricted to BS hulls ) that all use more than the +20 CPU you have given the mega.

Note: I'm missing acceleration control 5 so figures are not the max they should be ( thanks duality mirror ).
Hitako Hirutoshi
Free Rant Corp
#2052 - 2013-04-21 05:05:04 UTC
Must admits, those changes to gallente are totally disgusting... saying hte hyperion dish less damage with guns(6 * 1.5 = 9 and 8 * 1.25 = 10). I hate ROF bonus to the megatrhon but with one less low slot it means less dps in the end and will cost more capacitor, remember gallente isnt capless minmatar/caldari.

Screw dominix changes, worst changes of all time. with the bonus gone why bother with the hybrid the gallente trains for, they should either go autocannons... + you lock the ship to a pure drone purpose. Screw those changes. I'll be rage quitting the game I guess.
Hoinus
Duty Free Exchange
#2053 - 2013-04-21 08:12:26 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Mata Hotaki wrote:
If there is no weapon bonus, fit projectiles. There is a reason why people came up with this rule.

This rule is silly (and AC do not have more tracking than blasters, actually, neutron blasters have 20% more tracking than 800mm AC).

People fit AC when they don't care about their weapon, or don't want to use cap for them.

If you want to hurt your ennemy, blasters are better : electron blaster do more damage than 800mm AC up to 5km.
If you want to hit far, pulse laser are better : Dual heavy pulse do more damage than 800mm AC at 7km, and Dual Heavy Beam do more damage than 800mm AC at 14km.

Yes, I'm using the worse weapons possible to compare to 800mm AC. What these weapons don't have is capless use and versatility. But if you use AC for another reason than capless use or versatility, that's either because you don't care about the guns performances of your ship, or you don't know what you are doing.

Also, 800mm AC use the most PG of all the weapons I compared it to, but a little less CPU (4Tf less than the most cpu intensive of them).

There is no reason to use AC now if you didn't used them before, appart from the psychological barrier of the old bonus. In this regard, the Dominix earn a LOT of versatility.


Nice, nerf it to **** so you can use anything on it and it still won't matter. So it can be versatally ******.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#2054 - 2013-04-21 13:43:35 UTC
Hi,

i read alot in minmatar and galente bs balance threads and i mybe came up with a soloution for the balance problem for the megatron and tempest BS.

why dont give all the attack BS ships a role bonuslike :
(values discussable)
25% reduction of armor plate mass penalty
25% reduction of shield equipment sig radius penalty

of cours things would have to be rebalanced a bit but it would fix the problem that short ranged fast ships would be fast enough amor tanked while not beeing ridiciolus fast shield tanked.
similar logic for tempest at shields cause sinature and speed is a big point of debate.

so attack bs sould bee fast and skiny while armor or shield tanked wo creating any OP not intended fits.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2055 - 2013-04-21 13:49:25 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
Hi,

i read alot in minmatar and galente bs balance threads and i mybe came up with a soloution for the balance problem for the megatron and tempest BS.

why dont give all the attack BS ships a role bonuslike :
(values discussable)
25% reduction of armor plate mass penalty
25% reduction of shield equipment sig radius penalty

of cours things would have to be rebalanced a bit but it would fix the problem that short ranged fast ships would be fast enough amor tanked while not beeing ridiciolus fast shield tanked.
similar logic for tempest at shields cause sinature and speed is a big point of debate.

so attack bs sould bee fast and skiny while armor or shield tanked wo creating any OP not intended fits.


interesting ofc those can be built into the ship itself in terms of mass and sig radius but that is only half of the issue.
-cap issues with using mwd on battleships .. along with lasers and blasters/ active tank
-CCP doesn't seem to get how high the mass on battleships are and how that affects the role of attack.
-mega really ought to be shield fit and leave the navy version as the armour ship plates and blasters don't go together.
-Tempest is too bland a ship with no real emphasis and poor slot layout.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Drunken Bum
#2056 - 2013-04-21 14:36:38 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Mata Hotaki wrote:
Roime wrote:


lolautos

Do you even pvp?




I do, and typically have two Domis in my hangar.

One is usually fit with neutrons. The other has a full rack of assorted neuts. Both very cookie-cutter.

After the nerf, the benefits of lolautos will likely outweigh the benefits of lolneutrons. Especially since the Domi will be less maneuverable.

Why would you use a Dominix for that? The Armageddon is better for that.

i c wut u did there

After the patch we're giving the market some gentle supply restriction, like tying one wrist to the bedpost loosely with soft silk rope. Just enough to make things a bit more exciting for the market, not enough to make a safeword necessary.  -Fozzie
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2057 - 2013-04-21 15:35:29 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:


interesting ofc those can be built into the ship itself in terms of mass and sig radius but that is only half of the issue.
-cap issues with using mwd on battleships .. along with lasers and blasters/ active tank
-CCP doesn't seem to get how high the mass on battleships are and how that affects the role of attack.
-mega really ought to be shield fit and leave the navy version as the armour ship plates and blasters don't go together.
-Tempest is too bland a ship with no real emphasis and poor slot layout.


In all honesty, All the current proposal of the mega needs is another 25m3 bandwidth. It currently does more dps than it does on live (extra low) as well as being slightly more mobile. The fact that a much larger portion of it's damage comes from guns rather than heavy drones means that it's going to be doing even more dps in actual engagements due to overheat opportunity and an increased % of the dmg being instant rather than revolving around travel time. As I've stated, much of the wines in regards to the live version of the mega and current proposal are fruitless.

As for the tempest... This one gets a bit more tricky. I think it should be a small amount faster and swap a low for another mid as well as receive an increased drone bandwidth.
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#2058 - 2013-04-21 17:16:30 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:

-cap issues with using mwd on battleships .. along with lasers and blasters/ active tank
-CCP doesn't seem to get how high the mass on battleships are and how that affects the role of attack.
-mega really ought to be shield fit and leave the navy version as the armour ship plates and blasters don't go together.
-Tempest is too bland a ship with no real emphasis and poor slot layout.

No.
It.
Doesn't.

If they won't take away the LAR bonus to the Hyperion they're not giving you a 6/7/6 Megathron for shield tanking. Get over it.

Save the drones!
Jizzmaster Mckenzie
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2059 - 2013-04-21 17:23:58 UTC
Hoinus wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Mata Hotaki wrote:
If there is no weapon bonus, fit projectiles. There is a reason why people came up with this rule.

This rule is silly (and AC do not have more tracking than blasters, actually, neutron blasters have 20% more tracking than 800mm AC).

**snip**

In this regard, the Dominix earn a LOT of versatility.


Nice, nerf it to **** so you can use anything on it and it still won't matter. So it can be versatally ******.



Hoinus wins this thread.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2060 - 2013-04-21 19:29:03 UTC
ExAstra wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:

-cap issues with using mwd on battleships .. along with lasers and blasters/ active tank
-CCP doesn't seem to get how high the mass on battleships are and how that affects the role of attack.
-mega really ought to be shield fit and leave the navy version as the armour ship plates and blasters don't go together.
-Tempest is too bland a ship with no real emphasis and poor slot layout.

No.
It.
Doesn't.

If they won't take away the LAR bonus to the Hyperion they're not giving you a 6/7/6 Megathron for shield tanking. Get over it.




You haven't noticed the first version proposed for Megathron? -it was nothing but a poor copy of the Baltec1 lol shield fleet Megathron and no, no one asks for a 6/7/6 Megathron or maybe just to mock a bit dev's vision/understanding of Gallente philosophy or gameplay.
If something this new version of Mega and all battleships in general from my point of view have a very poor dps and should get a huge dps kick for at least 100% of what they have -well maybe not arty, those are already fotom enough with their wrecking shot at 20K alpha.

If you haven't figured out yet Gallente pilots ask for ages to be able to use their ships with the intended armor modules without IRL masochist requirement, then you'll never get it.
If we fit our ships with shield modules maybe there's a reason for it but you seem unable to realize which one.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne