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Crimewatch, helping hands and suspect flag & unpiloted ships in space
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Brigitte Schmidt
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-04-19 07:05:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Brigitte Schmidt
Hello forum,

I have to say that I love the idea of a suspect flag turning on when someone is remote repairing a person who's either in direct duel, or in a fight with other player. I think that the suspect flag should stay like it is now (for remote repairers) - hopefully, the joke requests like turning them into criminals popped by CONCORD will not get introduced.

Lets talk about consistency ...

1.) Switching ships from an Orca bay

Now, I'm here to talk about other 'helping hands' in a PvP where a player comes in a mission, steals the loot, gets the aggression timer against a player who's in mission because he was naive enough to shoot at the first place ... It's only natural to expect a remote repairer tagging along but what about Orca pilots?

Few of the groups are organized in a manner that an Orca jumps in a mission and provides an alternative ship to a suspect. A suspect then proceeds, switches the ships into a more fitting killing machine, and kills the missioner easier and faster. So, an Orca has assisted a suspect, yet it does not turn suspect. I think that detail is overlooked and it should get fixed. It's just easier for people who're dealing with such activities ... Before, people had to warp to station, switch the ship and hope that the missioner is still inside of the mission space in order to kill it. And now, they just get a ship by an Orca, who has no reprocussion. ( EDIT : it's just an example where a pirate has to warp X AU from the mission space to a station, but with an Orca he has the ship instantly in front of his nose. Whether missioner has attacked the remote repairer or not, will decide whether the attacker will switch ships because now the remote repairer has the 'point'. Now ... that's not the point - the point is that another user has provided help without getting suspect flag. And that's the only issue I have.)

Can we discuss about the idea mentioned? Am I tripping, or every single type of 'help' should turn you into a suspect? And I seriously think that swapping a ship from an Orcas bay is something to talk about, especially when swapping character is a suspect.

2.) Unpiloted & locked ships in space

I have no clue who 'invented' this kind of protection and what does "locked" really mean. Recently, I've managed a group of people in order to go against mission loot stealers, and to my surprise, I've found a nice litle group of few Orcas and T1 cruisers which were unmanned (unpiloted).

I thought that I've organized everything and that I was aware of everything, but bollocks ... We came with pods to unpiloted ships and could not board them because they were 'locked'. What is that? And why was it created? If a ship is unpiloted, why is it protected by someone who has it locked? What's the reasoning behind it because I'm missing the point.

Having unpiloted ships in space is a great idea because a 'pirate' does not have to wait 1 minute aggression timer in order to dock-up in station and switch ships but there's just too less risk involved to those who know the game mechanics. I was pretty turned down to know that the 'activities' are well defended by the system.

EDIT : Just copying the another inconsistent part within EvE ...

3.) System messages to users who are enemy of state/republic/...

Quote:
At the moment, players with security status lower or equal to -5.0 and the players with status lower or equal to -2.0 share the same "event message" when they enter in certain high sec systems, but they don't share the same "punishment". I'm quite aware that players with security status of -3.0 will get shot by the Navy if they come inside 1.0, 0.9 or 0.8 system - that's all fine and dandy.

The confusing part is the message which is activated by the -2.0 security status character when entering 1.0 system: All criminals in the [state/empire/...] will be shot on sight! Venturing into our space will be your last mistake, [user]! And why is that confusing? - It's the same message which is shared with the guys who have security status lower or equal to -5.0 who enter any high sec system yet they don't trigger "suspect" flag.

The "problem" can be fixed on, for me, two ways:


  • Create a new message which will handle the users who have security status above -5.0. In other words, don't call them "criminals". (something like: "Your past actions have been proven to be dangerous on the capsuleers of this space and you will be shot down by the [state/empire] navy.").

  • Users who have security status above -5.0 will be called criminals in high sec systems but they will trigger "suspect" flag. Of course, this means that other players are able to shoot them down.


Proposal for the second solution:

Players with -2.0 or worse will be attacked in 1.0 systems and get suspect flag.
Players with -2.5 or worse will be attacked in 0.9 systems and get suspect flag.
Players with -3.0 or worse will be attacked in 0.8 systems and get suspect flag.
Players with -3.5 or worse will be attacked in 0.7 systems and get suspect flag.
Players with -4.0 or worse will be attacked in 0.6 systems and get suspect flag.
Players with -4.5 or worse will be attacked in 0.5 systems and get suspect flag.


Hopefully we can get a nice discussion on-going, and if I'm wrong in any part please let me know : ). Sometimes the personal prejudice is way too subjective and I've maybe drifted off-course.

Thank you for reading!

With regards,
Brigitte Schmidt
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2013-04-19 07:51:04 UTC
You know if you abandon all wrecks when someone warps into your mission they almost always leave quickly because they realize they are going to have to suicide you if they want the kill?

Beyond that in reverse order:

I have heard of "joyriding" where you're out of ship but it still belongs to you somehow, it's a mechanic that doesn't interest me so I didn't learn it but it is possible.

As for the Orca if I understand you correctly the Orca is just acting as the station for quick and easy access, otherwise fighting and dying to a mission invader in high sec is just par for the course. You realize, I hope, that the entire purpose of invading a mission is to get the missioner to aggress and NOTHING ELSE. If you aggress him he has a plan, since you've been invaded chances are you don't. Predictable outcome is predictable.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Brigitte Schmidt
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-04-19 08:17:42 UTC
Hello,

Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
You know if you abandon all wrecks when someone warps into your mission they almost always leave quickly because they realize they are going to have to suicide you if they want the kill?


Yes, I'm quite aware of that - you're removing the 'thrill' they get from the possibility of getting shot at and eventually ending up killing the PvE ship.

Beyond that in reverse order:

Valleria Darkmoon wrote:

I have heard of "joyriding" where you're out of ship but it still belongs to you somehow, it's a mechanic that doesn't interest me so I didn't learn it but it is possible.


I'm here to discuss that, besides the suspect thing with an Orca. I have no clue why was such a solution introduced, but I dislike it, and would like to see the reasoning behind it. I think it's unfair and makes no sense to me.

Valleria Darkmoon wrote:

As for the Orca if I understand you correctly the Orca is just acting as the station for quick and easy access, otherwise fighting and dying to a mission invader in high sec is just par for the course. You realize, I hope, that the entire purpose of invading a mission is to get the missioner to aggress and NOTHING ELSE. If you aggress him he has a plan, since you've been invaded chances are you don't. Predictable outcome is predictable.


Of course Orca is just acting as the station for quick access ... But the Orca is helping out a suspect without reprocussion and that's why I'm here - to talk about the pilots who help out suspects, without getting a suspect flag. I know it's another level of helping out, but it's still helping. Thus, an Orca pilot should get a suspect flag?

Also, I didn't start this thread because I've lost something, or I'm annoyed by it. I have started this thread to clear out those mechanics:

  1. Why an Orca pilot doesn't get a suspect flag?
  2. Why is there a mechanic which allows people to abandon ship, but still 'lock' it up, so you can't steal it?


Never-the-less, thank you for putting me on the 'rookie' level and trying to explain me stuff which I know very well.

I repeat once more:

- I am not annoyed by the presence of 'ninja' looters.
- I did not lose a ship against them.
- I have nothing against neutral remote repairing.
- I just want to discuss two mentioned mechanics.

With regards,
Brigitte Schmidt
Donedy
Lulzsec Space
#4 - 2013-04-19 08:30:06 UTC
Normally since retribution there is a 1mn aggro timer to switch ships in the orca.
I dont understand the problem.
You are saying there is a way to swap ships with orca without any timers?
Brigitte Schmidt
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2013-04-19 08:39:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Brigitte Schmidt
Donedy wrote:
Normally since retribution there is a 1mn aggro timer to switch ships in the orca.
I dont understand the problem.
You are saying there is a way to swap ships with orca without any timers?


I'm not sure about that timer, but I'm not talking about that 1 minute aggression timer ... I'm talking about a suspect, changing a ship within an Orca, without an Orca turning suspect.

If a remote repairer gets flagged as suspect because he's helping out his alt\friend in a battle, why doesn't the Orca get a suspect flag for helping out the same suspect by providing suspect with better\stronger ship?
Donedy
Lulzsec Space
#6 - 2013-04-21 17:01:24 UTC
Well where is the problem? Normally a griefer wouldnt do that anyway as you have to stop pointing your target during 1 mn to swap your ship.

Docking/undocking would may be be even more efficient.
Brigitte Schmidt
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2013-04-22 13:18:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Brigitte Schmidt
The problem is that the game is inconsistent.

Why does the neutral remote repairer get the suspect timer but an Orca pilot providing a suspect with better ship does not? They're both helping the suspect, thus both events should mark helper as a suspect. And of course he will not swap ships if the missioner didn't attack the remote repairer.

EDIT: the third inconsistent part has been added.
StoneCold
Decadence.
RAZOR Alliance
#8 - 2013-04-22 13:25:58 UTC
Every 'good citzien' can eject his ship to take a bath between the skies.
That´s ofc a non criminal act. Even if an orca pilot tosses out a ship.

Thats the basic.

Now there is a ship floating around, locked up by the orca. Now the orca pilot takes off his lock and someone jumps into the ship and warps away with it.

I don´t get the point where exactly the orca should turn suspect.

My true stories
Brigitte Schmidt
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2013-04-22 13:28:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Brigitte Schmidt
StoneCold wrote:
Every 'good citzien' can eject his ship to take a bath between the skies.
I don´t get the point where exactly the orca should turn suspect.


When they switch the ship from it's bay (or refit the ship).

I have nothing against people lock up the ship, and let it in space : ). Because there will be an interval (locking interval) where someone can steal a ship which is dropped outside in space.

EDIT : And regarding that 'ship locking' - is it there since the start of the game or? I can't find anything on that topic : why and when?
StoneCold
Decadence.
RAZOR Alliance
#10 - 2013-04-22 13:42:02 UTC
As i remember it was there since i play (thats like 2 weeks after the server went up).

On the refitting part you´re right - that (probably should) cause a suspection flag.

The 'switching' will happen this way: Orca ejects the ship. Someone boards it.
The orca is activly not involved in any crime.

EDIT:
You could also lock the ship making someone unable to jump inside btw ;-)

My true stories
Brigitte Schmidt
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2013-04-22 13:51:36 UTC
StoneCold wrote:
As i remember it was there since i play (thats like 2 weeks after the server went up).

On the refitting part you´re right - that (probably should) cause a suspection flag.

The 'switching' will happen this way: Orca ejects the ship. Someone boards it.
The orca is activly not involved in any crime.

EDIT:
You could also lock the ship making someone unable to jump inside btw ;-)


Yes, but the suspect has to put his ship somewhere. If he puts it into the Orca bay, he's helping out preserving his assets; hence -> suspect.

If he locks up a ship which was owned by a suspect, he's helping out preserving his assets; hence -> suspect.

Locking has it's own limitation ( locking range ). It's just the matter of pirate using his alts or he's in a corporation with X people online and active : ).
StoneCold
Decadence.
RAZOR Alliance
#12 - 2013-04-22 13:54:06 UTC
Ah, the storing. Always thought its only spit out of the orca.
Aye, for storing it´s a different question. No idea if it should cause the orca to turn suspect because the orca pilot could also 'steal' assets of a criminal.

Locking a ship should never turn you supsect. If so locking a -10 in highsec would mean you get concordokkened.

My true stories
Brigitte Schmidt
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2013-04-22 14:05:21 UTC
StoneCold wrote:
Ah, the storing. Always thought its only spit out of the orca.
Aye, for storing it´s a different question. No idea if it should cause the orca to turn suspect because the orca pilot could also 'steal' assets of a criminal.

Locking a ship should never turn you supsect. If so locking a -10 in highsec would mean you get concordokkened.


Well, every action which helps out a suspect should get him a suspect flag (in general).
StoneCold
Decadence.
RAZOR Alliance
#14 - 2013-04-22 14:06:54 UTC
Brigitte Schmidt wrote:
StoneCold wrote:
Ah, the storing. Always thought its only spit out of the orca.
Aye, for storing it´s a different question. No idea if it should cause the orca to turn suspect because the orca pilot could also 'steal' assets of a criminal.

Locking a ship should never turn you supsect. If so locking a -10 in highsec would mean you get concordokkened.


Well, every action which helps out a suspect should get him a suspect flag (in general).

The sourcecode just can´t decide if it´s a fooled orca pilot or if he is helping the bunch.
You could also lock a ship to prevent a criminal to use it.

My true stories
Brigitte Schmidt
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2013-04-22 14:32:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Brigitte Schmidt
No clue how did they program their stuff, but if they have everything in objects and everything is setup correctly, they could do such actions pretty easily : )?

I mean, every locked ship has the notification in overview who's locking him, right?

If every player is an object with their own properties, it can be done.

The worst thing what I hate to do is to place some kind of a display code, because it's nonsense ... but just to make it more clear:

Regarding the player entering the system. I am not saying I want to turn people suspects, but he's either going to be CONCORDED (since he's criminal), or he's going to get SUSPECT FLAG, or he's going to just get another message (see point 3. of initial post).
Quote:


player.onSystemEnter = function(){

IF ( this.playerSecurityStatus < system.allowedSecurityStatus){
showMessage( messages[ 'criminal' ];

IF ( mode.hardcore ){
// mode.hardcore = mode where user would turn suspect if he has security level below the allowed security status
player.turnSuspect ( this.uniqueID );
}
}
}


And refitting is the worst part since it's maybe mixing too many stuff. But still, every ship change should trigger same procedure\function? Maybe yes, maybe not ...

Quote:


player.onChangeShip = function(){

IF ( refit.source.type == 'ship') {

IF ( this.hasSuspectFlag ) {

refit.source.getPlayer().turnSuspect();
}
}
}


Once again sorry for the code for those who are really annoyed by the same thing I am : /. But I just had to post it ( maybe to poke someone who has seen some code, etc. ). :P

EDIT : the point is just to get some kind of consistency : ). If someone is helping out a suspect, then turn him into suspect as well.
StoneCold
Decadence.
RAZOR Alliance
#16 - 2013-04-22 16:04:41 UTC
There is still no touching point of the orca and the suspect IF the orca pilots ejects the ship (and then warps off, docks up, logs out) and the criminal jumps into the ship like 8 hours later.

There is no difference between 20 seconds and 8 hours.

If needed i can post u this in cobol, java, turing, pretty much every langugage u like most.

My true stories
StrongSmartSexy
Phenix Revolution
#17 - 2013-04-22 16:56:44 UTC
Brigitte Schmidt wrote:
Before, people had to warp to station, switch the ship and hope that the missioner is still inside of the mission space in order to kill it.

No, that tactic was only really used by solo players without access to alts or help.
Pre-crimewatch, players were free to use Orcas to drop them combat ships or alts/friends to come in with a battleship to eject from and let you board whilst still in the mission and having the target locked down. Pre-crimewatch, if you had alts/friends and were organised, missioners who shot were guaranteed kills.

Crimewatch introduced the weapons flag that prevents you from boarding ships for 60 seconds - which means you would need someone to bump your target out of alignment for 60 seconds while you wait for your weapon flag to terminate and let you board into your freshly dropped combat ship.
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-04-23 00:46:17 UTC
You are thinking of it the wrong way. Both are there to prevent more "exploits" than they allow.

Lets start with the ghost rider. The easy part. What if you could board a locked ship?

Well, I would get you to engage. You would lock and shoot at me. I would eject from my ship and board it with an alt, while your missiles are mid flight. You are now shooting a different person than you locked on to, one you have no legal right to shoot at. Enter CONCORDOKKEN.

The Orca likewise follows this train of thought. It's not that it's not punishing the Orca pilot for helping (the launch part pointed out by Stone making it just about impossible aside). It's preventing someone from maliciously turning an Orca suspect without the Orca pilot having any control over it. Suspect/Criminal flags always have to be a result of a direct action taken by the pilot, to prevent extreme abuse.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Brigitte Schmidt
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2013-04-23 18:37:56 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
You are thinking of it the wrong way. Both are there to prevent more "exploits" than they allow.

Lets start with the ghost rider. The easy part. What if you could board a locked ship?

Well, I would get you to engage. You would lock and shoot at me. I would eject from my ship and board it with an alt, while your missiles are mid flight. You are now shooting a different person than you locked on to, one you have no legal right to shoot at. Enter CONCORDOKKEN.

The Orca likewise follows this train of thought. It's not that it's not punishing the Orca pilot for helping (the launch part pointed out by Stone making it just about impossible aside). It's preventing someone from maliciously turning an Orca suspect without the Orca pilot having any control over it. Suspect/Criminal flags always have to be a result of a direct action taken by the pilot, to prevent extreme abuse.


Roger, thank you!