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Cyno re-balancing
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Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-04-17 17:15:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
A ship activating a cyno (regular or covert) should have some limitations added; being that it is the gateway for a much larger force.

1) a) When the cyno is lit, the ships signature radius should increase 600%. The beacon is strong enough to be warped to system wide, so the ship creating it should be very easy to target.
b) When the cyno is lit, the scan resolution of the cyno ship should drop to 1/6 of its normal strength and targeting range should also drop to 1/6 of normal. With the strength of the cyno right next to and being created by the cyno ship, it should be hard to see other ships.
2) When the cyno is lit, all uncloaked ships on grid should be able to lock onto the cyno and grant access to their fleets to jump to the same cyno. It is just a beacon, after all, and a strong one at that.

These are very specific, clear, and concise ideas with clear reasons for each. Feel free to like or dislike each of these ideas, with or without reasons for your opinion. Please keep this thread clear of rants, trolling, derailing, and other activities specifically prohibited in the forum rules.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#2 - 2013-04-17 17:25:30 UTC
Firstly, you say balance. What is it you're trying to balance? All you've stated is a list of nerfs to ships with cyno modules. Considering the ship is stationary and can't move for the duration of the cyno, thus sitting duck, I completely fail to see any reason to further the already enormous negative side of cynos. What you're suggesting doesn't make the ship any less able to deploy said force (fleet), all it does is mean the cyno ship probably can't shoot back and takes max damage from aggressors.

Sounds like someone is angry because a cyno ship got away.
Shahai Shintaro
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-04-17 17:30:34 UTC
1a) The cyno and the ship are two distinct entities. So go ahead and lock the field quickly but the ship producing it doesn't need increased signature

1b) The ship is already immobile, so it's basically a sitting gun turret for 5-10 minutes. It does not need any other penalties.

2) While I don't know the specific lore technology, imagine each field has its own frequency encoded that is required to lock and this frequency is only given to other pilots in fleet. So in other words, no.

The only way I could support any of these is if they came with the ability to turn off the cyno at will
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-04-17 17:32:02 UTC
Hi Andy, did you get hot dropped again?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Li Mu'Bai
Absurdity of Abstractions
#5 - 2013-04-17 17:33:58 UTC
Really? Like... Really? I give you credit for a pretty awesome troll. +1.

1a; Sig Radius: Why should this matter? It's sitting absolutely still. What are you shooting at the cyno ship with? a Phoenix?
1b: Scanres / Targeting: Just no. This makes lighting cynos in Recons pointless. Besides, if a pilot is willing to put a cyno on a Falcon or Arazu, it should provide some benefit over the typical ibis cyno alt. Same with lighting them on heavy tanked battleships or command ships: what would be the point anymore using anything other than throw-away garbage?
2: Yes, let's let other black ops lock on to our COVERT Cyno. In terms of regular cynos, it's ridiculous. You'd just have people with 30 dreads and machariels jumping to every damn cyno they see on the map.

Did you perhaps get killed by a cyno ship, and this is the emorage as a result?
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#6 - 2013-04-17 17:38:50 UTC
1.
A. The signature radius, I'm not really sure what exactly it would do because the cyno boats are already sitting ducks not being able to move. Unless there is a range limitation from some deep space save points that I do not know about, you can warp to the cyno directly because it populates on your overview (Does not apply for cov ops cyno).
B. For people who are hot dropping a target, they will already have their target locked and pointed before they light the cyno, so a nerf to scan res really wouldn't do anything. The nerf to targetting range would do something because the cyno boat would have to make sure they are on top of their target to keep it pointed while their fleet loads grid.

2. I would assume that the cyno has a frequency hop, like modern radios, to prevent capital ships not in the same fleet as the person lighting the cyno cannot lock onto. However due to the spacial disruption involved in the cyno itself, it can be warped to. You can fit a cyno to your boat just as easily as theirs.

I would like to see that if you light a cyno, then join someones fleet, they can still utilize the cyno. It would basically be like giving them the encryption key to the cyno.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#7 - 2013-04-17 17:58:49 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
A ship activating a cyno (regular or covert) should have some limitations added; being that it is the gateway for a much larger force.

Because being immobilized for 10 minutes with a system wide warpable beacon isn't a severe enough limitation?

Andy Landen wrote:

1) a) When the cyno is lit, the ships signature radius should increase 600%. The beacon is strong enough to be warped to system wide, so the ship creating it should be very easy to target.

Why? It's immobile, which already increases the effective damage on it. Perhaps you want to make it quickly targetable for capital/supercaps... I can understand your desire, but I don't think this is necessary. Instead, capital+ ships should have support with them to quickly dispose of any threats.

Andy Landen wrote:

1) b) When the cyno is lit, the scan resolution of the cyno ship should drop to 1/6 of its normal strength and targeting range should also drop to 1/6 of normal. With the strength of the cyno right next to and being created by the cyno ship, it should be hard to see other ships.

This makes no sense!! Why nerf the range and locking speed? Generally it has already locked the target it intends to tackle prior to lighting the cyno, and it's not like it can move so you can already power out of it's lock range should you desire!

Andy Landen wrote:

2) When the cyno is lit, all uncloaked ships on grid should be able to lock onto the cyno and grant access to their fleets to jump to the same cyno. It is just a beacon, after all, and a strong one at that.

Perhaps the cyno module contains the complicated electronics to broadcast the signal many ly's away to an awaiting fleet. And if you had a "backup" fleet ready to cyno in, perhaps you should bring your own cyno! I see this mechanic being heavily abused!

Andy Landen wrote:

These are very specific, clear, and concise ideas with clear reasons for each. Feel free to like or dislike each of these ideas, with or without reasons for your opinion. Please keep this thread clear of rants, trolling, derailing, and other activities specifically prohibited in the forum rules.

They might be clear, concise ideas, but you didn't provide any "clear reasons" why these should be implemented.
Secret Squirrell
Allied Press Intergalactic
#8 - 2013-04-17 19:05:34 UTC
I prefer the idea sometimes floated around to let anyone jump to a cyno/beacon. It would provide some great opportunities for emergent gameplay, without directly nerfing anything. Hot dropping would work just as well as now, but you would never know who else might bridge in with you etc... Covert Cynos, being covert and all, would be exempt. Maybe add a new T2 Cyno that limits itself to fleet, and allows cap jumps, cyno 5, and wont fit on anything smaller then a BC/T2 Cruiser. Sure you can keep using throw away cyno ships, but there will be some more risk.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#9 - 2013-04-17 19:22:18 UTC
Secret Squirrell wrote:
I prefer the idea sometimes floated around to let anyone jump to a cyno/beacon. It would provide some great opportunities for emergent gameplay, without directly nerfing anything. Hot dropping would work just as well as now, but you would never know who else might bridge in with you etc... Covert Cynos, being covert and all, would be exempt. Maybe add a new T2 Cyno that limits itself to fleet, and allows cap jumps, cyno 5, and wont fit on anything smaller then a BC/T2 Cruiser. Sure you can keep using throw away cyno ships, but there will be some more risk.


If anyone could jump to a cyno it would kill all but large cap fleets as large cap fleets would sit around waiting for a cyno and then jump to it and kill everything which would lead to caps being only usable by alliances that have cap blobs. It would create a short period of more cap fights followed by only one cap fleet in each region and no one else able to use caps at all.

If you had a tech2 module that would only allow fleet members to jump to it no one would use the tech1 version, ever.

It's a terrible idea and luckily CCP aren't stupid enough to do it. There is a reason they initially designed it to only work within fleet just like there's a reason it hasn't been changed already. It's already been balanced and needs no further balancing.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#10 - 2013-04-17 19:35:27 UTC
I think it would be funny if there was a crossover effect.

Ship lights a cyno.

Opposing ship pops a warp bubble before anything can jump through the cyno.
(interdiction sphere probe, hictor field generator, heck, someone malicious popping a cyno in an anchored bubble even)

Options:
1. Ships coming through the cyno land with zero cap and shields.
2. Ships coming through land somewhere else. Unknown system bounce within original jump range.
3. You are now in wormhole X. Getting out comes after surviving long enough to even try.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Jureth22
State War Academy
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-04-17 19:53:13 UTC
show me where the big bad redeemer touched you
Secret Squirrell
Allied Press Intergalactic
#12 - 2013-04-17 20:43:27 UTC
Tchulen wrote:
Secret Squirrell wrote:
I prefer the idea sometimes floated around to let anyone jump to a cyno/beacon. It would provide some great opportunities for emergent gameplay, without directly nerfing anything. Hot dropping would work just as well as now, but you would never know who else might bridge in with you etc... Covert Cynos, being covert and all, would be exempt. Maybe add a new T2 Cyno that limits itself to fleet, and allows cap jumps, cyno 5, and wont fit on anything smaller then a BC/T2 Cruiser. Sure you can keep using throw away cyno ships, but there will be some more risk.


If anyone could jump to a cyno it would kill all but large cap fleets as large cap fleets would sit around waiting for a cyno and then jump to it and kill everything which would lead to caps being only usable by alliances that have cap blobs. It would create a short period of more cap fights followed by only one cap fleet in each region and no one else able to use caps at all.

If you had a tech2 module that would only allow fleet members to jump to it no one would use the tech1 version, ever.

It's a terrible idea and luckily CCP aren't stupid enough to do it. There is a reason they initially designed it to only work within fleet just like there's a reason it hasn't been changed already. It's already been balanced and needs no further balancing.


I can imagine nothing that could possibly go wrong blind jumping your cap fleet onto ever cyno that gets lit... like a cyno on a large POS with loads of warp disruptors, have fun getting your regular caps loose. Or a cyno in the middle of a station, causing the arriving caps to get launched all over the grid, with a sub cap fleet waiting at a ping to have its way with any that get bumped far enough from the rest of the fleet... Not to mention all the fuel you would waste jumping to cyno rookie ships on stations where the other ship has already docked.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#13 - 2013-04-17 20:50:22 UTC
Secret Squirrell wrote:
I can imagine nothing that could possibly go wrong blind jumping your cap fleet onto ever cyno that gets lit... like a cyno on a large POS with loads of warp disruptors, have fun getting your regular caps loose. Or a cyno in the middle of a station, causing the arriving caps to get launched all over the grid, with a sub cap fleet waiting at a ping to have its way with any that get bumped far enough from the rest of the fleet... Not to mention all the fuel you would waste jumping to cyno rookie ships on stations where the other ship has already docked.

Sounds like a new kind of fishing.....

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#14 - 2013-04-18 13:25:29 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
Hopelesshobo wrote:
1.
A. The signature radius, I'm not really sure what exactly it would do because the cyno boats are already sitting ducks not being able to move. Unless there is a range limitation from some deep space save points that I do not know about, you can warp to the cyno directly because it populates on your overview (Does not apply for cov ops cyno).
B. For people who are hot dropping a target, they will already have their target locked and pointed before they light the cyno, so a nerf to scan res really wouldn't do anything. The nerf to targetting range would do something because the cyno boat would have to make sure they are on top of their target to keep it pointed while their fleet loads grid.

2. I would assume that the cyno has a frequency hop, like modern radios, to prevent capital ships not in the same fleet as the person lighting the cyno cannot lock onto. However due to the spacial disruption involved in the cyno itself, it can be warped to. You can fit a cyno to your boat just as easily as theirs.

I would like to see that if you light a cyno, then join someones fleet, they can still utilize the cyno. It would basically be like giving them the encryption key to the cyno.

a fun "counter" to cyno could be a new module/

assuming the cyno is, somehow, using a kind of unique frequency / encryption to ensure that only fleet members can jump on it, why not a device that could incur perturbations to this?

the effect could be either preventing all jumps, but this would probably be OP, OR could just give some perturbation on what is jumping on it, like some will land where they are supposed, some will arrive in the correct system, but not the correct spot, some will land in a system in between, or even in another spot of their starting system.

for balance purpose, the chances of each scenario could be scalable, like 50% will land on cyno,30% in correct system but not on the cyno, 15% will land in random system in-between and 5% will not even leave the origin system (i choosed random %, could be indeed modified, again for balance purposes)

this module could be an AOE (range to be defined, but definitely on grid) and could be restricted regarding which ships could fit it.

of course, it would affect ANY cyno in it's effect range, including thoses lighten by a fleetmember, and could have some drawbacks, like making the "jammer" static, or slower, or unable to receive any remote effect etc....

or even just use existing modules, like ECM.

a succesfully jammed cyno ship will result tin the previously described result, for whatever thing that is jumping while the cyno is jammed
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-04-19 05:24:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Andy Landen wrote:
A ship activating a cyno (regular or covert) should have some limitations added; being that it is the gateway for a much larger force.

1) a) When the cyno is lit, the ships signature radius should increase 600%. The beacon is strong enough to be warped to system wide, so the ship creating it should be very easy to target.
b) When the cyno is lit, the scan resolution of the cyno ship should drop to 1/6 of its normal strength and targeting range should also drop to 1/6 of normal. With the strength of the cyno right next to and being created by the cyno ship, it should be hard to see other ships.
2) When the cyno is lit, all uncloaked ships on grid should be able to lock onto the cyno and grant access to their fleets to jump to the same cyno. It is just a beacon, after all, and a strong one at that.

These are very specific, clear, and concise ideas with clear reasons for each. Feel free to like or dislike each of these ideas, with or without reasons for your opinion. Please keep this thread clear of rants, trolling, derailing, and other activities specifically prohibited in the forum rules.

Effects/Reasons:
1) a) The cyno ship is locked faster. Would naturally come with creating a super bright cyno right next to your ship.
b) The cyno ship would lock slower. Hard to lock when you have this really intense cyno that you are generating right next to you. It would not lock as far either for the same reason.
2) Anyone wanting to jump to the cyno would have to have a ship on grid with the cyno in order to have that cyno broadcast to them in their own fleet. Bringing in your big boys? Well, the "victim" may have a few of his own big boys to bring in too. If he needs the cyno, the cyno ship may not be destroyed at first.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Old Fellow
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2013-04-19 12:27:43 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
A ship activating a cyno (regular or covert) should have some limitations added; being that it is the gateway for a much larger force.

1) a) When the cyno is lit, the ships signature radius should increase 600%. The beacon is strong enough to be warped to system wide, so the ship creating it should be very easy to target.
b) When the cyno is lit, the scan resolution of the cyno ship should drop to 1/6 of its normal strength and targeting range should also drop to 1/6 of normal. With the strength of the cyno right next to and being created by the cyno ship, it should be hard to see other ships.
2) When the cyno is lit, all uncloaked ships on grid should be able to lock onto the cyno and grant access to their fleets to jump to the same cyno. It is just a beacon, after all, and a strong one at that.

These are very specific, clear, and concise ideas with clear reasons for each. Feel free to like or dislike each of these ideas, with or without reasons for your opinion. Please keep this thread clear of rants, trolling, derailing, and other activities specifically prohibited in the forum rules.



Show us on the doll where the black ops touched you.


Also no covert cynos are just that COVERT.
Regular cyno ships dont need to be nerphed any more they already are by lighting said cyno.

Sorry I dont believe your changes would positively affect the game.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#17 - 2013-04-19 13:26:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Seranova Farreach
id like to see the t2 cyno cruisers get more buffs for cynos/covert cynos cause even 5 minutes at high to all 5 skills. maybe default cycle time could be 10 minutes then -1 minute per level of skill down to 5 minutes or something (on any ship) and then on the HULL of the ship it should have a bonus per level of the t2 skill which % wise could make it down to 1 minute at 5.. 2 minutes at 4.. and so on

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#18 - 2013-04-19 14:13:40 UTC
dafuq is this.... i dont even...

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#19 - 2013-04-19 14:18:20 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:
A ship activating a cyno (regular or covert) should have some limitations added; being that it is the gateway for a much larger force.

1) a) When the cyno is lit, the ships signature radius should increase 600%. The beacon is strong enough to be warped to system wide, so the ship creating it should be very easy to target.
b) When the cyno is lit, the scan resolution of the cyno ship should drop to 1/6 of its normal strength and targeting range should also drop to 1/6 of normal. With the strength of the cyno right next to and being created by the cyno ship, it should be hard to see other ships.
2) When the cyno is lit, all uncloaked ships on grid should be able to lock onto the cyno and grant access to their fleets to jump to the same cyno. It is just a beacon, after all, and a strong one at that.

These are very specific, clear, and concise ideas with clear reasons for each. Feel free to like or dislike each of these ideas, with or without reasons for your opinion. Please keep this thread clear of rants, trolling, derailing, and other activities specifically prohibited in the forum rules.

Effects/Reasons:
1) a) The cyno ship is locked faster. Would naturally come with creating a super bright cyno right next to your ship.
b) The cyno ship would lock slower. Hard to lock when you have this really intense cyno that you are generating right next to you. It would not lock as far either for the same reason.
2) Anyone wanting to jump to the cyno would have to have a ship on grid with the cyno in order to have that cyno broadcast to them in their own fleet. Bringing in your big boys? Well, the "victim" may have a few of his own big boys to bring in too. If he needs the cyno, the cyno ship may not be destroyed at first.


It doesn't really matter what your explanations for why you want this change are. What is it you're trying to balance? What game reasons (not lore, not roleplay, not physics etc) do you have for wanting these changes?

Or is it just that you think they should act like that for a lore/physics/realistic/roleplay reason?
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#20 - 2013-04-20 12:36:50 UTC
Tchulen wrote:


It doesn't really matter what your explanations for why you want this change are. What is it you're trying to balance? What game reasons (not lore, not roleplay, not physics etc) do you have for wanting these changes?

Or is it just that you think they should act like that for a lore/physics/realistic/roleplay reason?

In addition to lore/physics/realistic/roleplay reasons, force projection of hostile fleets deep into enemy sov space is too overpowered, especially for massive alliances and alliances of alliances. These changes level the playing field for smaller groups. They also require these massive alliances to use more than just a single ship to project their massive power into the system(s) of their choosing. These changes would be a win for the smaller alliances and for the defenders and sov holders.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
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