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[Odyssey] Cruise Missiles

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TZeer
BURN EDEN
No Therapy
#221 - 2013-04-17 08:10:11 UTC  |  Edited by: TZeer
Liang Nuren wrote:
TZeer wrote:
Raven could be useful in PVP. But not with the current mechanics to probing where you get a warp in within 5 sec.


Sure, and if you're trying to use the Raven against fleets that are big enough to have a dedicated covops traveling with them.... well, then maybe you shouldn't use a Raven. That doesn't make it not useful. And hell - the Raven's fully capable of dropping out 900 DPS up close if someone were to warp their fleet on top of them.

-Liang



A ship for every use.

I should have been clearer what I meant. I'm saying that it's long range advantage is a hypothetical thing on a paper as long as the 5 sec scan time is still here.

The entire caldari T1 BS line up has bonuses to range. For what?? It's not like they can take advantage of it. Except for the Rohk who can maybe use some shorter range ammo and get some extra DPS. But that's it.

Proper sniping gameplay has been close to none existent since CCP changed the probing mechanics. Except for that short period where we had unprobable setups.
SongSinger
BlitzStrike
#222 - 2013-04-17 08:21:34 UTC
my suggestion
need to increase the velocity the explosion of missiles by 10%
increase the velocity torpedoes, up to 2250 m / s
reduce the bonus of  explosion radius T2 (fury / rage), from 72% to 50%
increase the Scan Resolution for BS, which is used missiles to 115-120
add-ins, which will increase the velocity of the explosion, to reduce the blast radius
Vitalius D'Fox
Heavy Metall Squad
#223 - 2013-04-17 08:26:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Vitalius D'Fox
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

Because without on grid warping/probing they outdamage EVERYTHING else at extreme ranges.

Even without probes, they can't take down that intercepter, who fly straight to them.
Even without probes, even slowpoke-logistics can lock your primary.
Even without probes, your target can warp out. He even have enough time to laugh in local chat.
Even with interdictor probes, your target can MWD out and warp, till missiles fly.

Liang Nuren wrote:
Well, it's 750 DPS at whatever ranges you can lock. Given that the Vindicator negative lock range trick doesn't work anymore... that seems pretty useful. The ability to attack a POS from 200km seems pretty useful. The ability to project damage in a huge sphere around static assets (like triage carriers) seems pretty useful. The ability to tackle someone on a static asset (like a high sec gate) and pummel them from range seems pretty useful.

But hey, maybe you're totally right and there's another BS that puts out 750 DPS at absurd ranges.

-Liang

How often did you see any Raven do this? POS bashing? Bombers can do better with lower risks. Ravens can't take down a carrier. Neutrolizers can do a better job at finishing carriers, than ravens missiles. Tornado do a better surpise damage on gate fights. They can't tacle you, your guy tacle them. Why do i need Raven with EFT dps and delayed damage, when our tackler guys takes damage right now? I don't know.

MrDiao wrote:

Don't really have to.

Yes the high alpha cruise missile can do dangerous "DPH" at close range, but no one would guarantee that this dangerious DPH can beat a fleet with high close range DPS.

All because anyway no one mentioned how the DPS of high alhpa cruse will be. If the DPS is very low, the high alpha won't give you any advantage in close range fight.


There are generally ways to solve a problem, dont have to stick on the difficult one and count it as the only solution

Volley damage can be better than dps. All we can remember arty-abaddons. Huge tank safes from enemy, and huge volley, can oneshots enemy ships.


Liang Nuren wrote:

Sure, and if you're trying to use the Raven against fleets that are big enough to have a dedicated covops traveling with them.... well, then maybe you shouldn't use a Raven. That doesn't make it not useful. And hell - the Raven's fully capable of dropping out 900 DPS up close if someone were to warp their fleet on top of them.

-Liang

You don't need covops to scan ravens.
Raven can fully capable of dropping 900dps only in EFT.
lilol' me
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#224 - 2013-04-17 08:36:03 UTC  |  Edited by: lilol' me
We have to remember that usually Cruise Missiles are not supposed to be for ship to ship battles. In RL like the tomahawks they are used to shoot land targets or 'structures' mainly. They not used for moving targets.

So its not really a PVP tool is it. However we used to have the TASM which was an anti ship missile and this is exactly what we need in eve. A NEW Cruise Missile specifically designed for PVP.

They should still be only shooting large ships, but have much much more velocity and perhaps not as much DPS. I know we have rage and precision cruise but I still dont think they are PVP based missiles as they dont have enough velocity.

The changes to say 14 seconds just does nothing to help this. Seriously 14 seconds to hit a target in PVP. Forget it. I know thats base but still.
MrDiao
Fuxi Legion
Fraternity.
#225 - 2013-04-17 08:40:19 UTC  |  Edited by: MrDiao
Vitalius D'Fox wrote:

Volley damage can be better than dps. All we can remember arty-abaddons. Huge tank safes from enemy, and huge volley, can oneshots enemy ships.


To be honest, how many major alliance still using arty-abandons?

Does arty-abandon fleet has a notable advantage to fight a pulse abandon fleet?
How about fighting a rokh fleet or a maelstrom fleet with the "arty-abandon fleet"?

Ironically this example is a rather good explanation that why DPH without the support of fair DPS could be bad, or at least not that good as you expected, and alpha cruise missile could be a well-balanced solution, and the DPH does not rule all.

If this is basically what you want to say, the argument has ended :)
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#226 - 2013-04-17 08:44:50 UTC
lilol' me wrote:
A NEW Cruise Missile specifically designed for PVP.
They should still be only shooting large ships, but have much much more velocity and perhaps not as much DPS.

Hint: there are no railguns in RL, but there are in EVE.
Vitalius D'Fox
Heavy Metall Squad
#227 - 2013-04-17 08:44:54 UTC
MrDiao wrote:

To be honest, how many major alliance still using arty-abandons?

Does arty-abandon fleet has a notable advantage to fight a pulse abandon fleet?
How about fighting a rokh fleet or a maelstrom fleet with the "arty-abandon fleet"?

Ironically this example is a rather good explanation that why DPH without the support of fair DPS could be bad, or at least not that good as you expected, and alpha cruise missile could be a well-balanced solution, and the DPH does not rule all.

If this is basically what you want to say, the argument has ended :)

Yep. Example with arty-abaddons was awfull. And this fit gone with TD(Time Dilation). But it was first to come in mind.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#228 - 2013-04-17 08:46:17 UTC
Vitalius D'Fox wrote:

Liang Nuren wrote:
Well, it's 750 DPS at whatever ranges you can lock. Given that the Vindicator negative lock range trick doesn't work anymore... that seems pretty useful. The ability to attack a POS from 200km seems pretty useful. The ability to project damage in a huge sphere around static assets (like triage carriers) seems pretty useful. The ability to tackle someone on a static asset (like a high sec gate) and pummel them from range seems pretty useful.

But hey, maybe you're totally right and there's another BS that puts out 750 DPS at absurd ranges.

-Liang

How often did you see any Raven do this? POS bashing? Bombers can do better with lower risks. Ravens can't support carrier. Tornado do a better surpise damage on gate fights. They can't tacle you, your guy tacle them. Why do i need Raven with EFT dps and delayed damage, when our tackler guys takes damage right now? I don't know.


You know, I must not know as much about Eve as I thought I did. The best range fit I have for a bomber in my EFT only puts out ~370 DPS at 130km. I'm not seeing how to get 750 DPS at 249km, especially with a reasonable tank. Can you help me with my fit please?

I'm also extremely surprised by the assertion that Ravens can't support a carrier. I felt like I could sure have used some Raven support when that Falcon kept decloaking 70-120km from my fleet and we couldn't reliably project damage out that far. I also feel like we might have gotten that Bhaalgorn kill if we'd had better damage projection from inside the RR sphere of the carrier.

And finally, I'm somewhat baffled by the argument that I was looking for surprise damage in a gate fight. What I was actually doing was looking for a way to apply 700+ DPS from outside of anyone's effective engagement range - and potentially from outside the engagement range of the sentries. I've always felt that the 400 DPS of a sniper nado felt kinda weak when plinking away at Rokhs and Abaddons, but maybe you have better luck than I do. :)

Quote:

Liang Nuren wrote:

Sure, and if you're trying to use the Raven against fleets that are big enough to have a dedicated covops traveling with them.... well, then maybe you shouldn't use a Raven. That doesn't make it not useful. And hell - the Raven's fully capable of dropping out 900 DPS up close if someone were to warp their fleet on top of them.

-Liang

You don't need covops to scan ravens.
Raven can fully capable of dropping 900dps only in EFT.


Here, obviously you know more about Eve than I do. Can you help me out with my math? By my reasoning we should be seeing 641 DPS * 1.316 + 158 = 1001 raw DPS. What damage mitigation percentage should I assume? Maybe we should assume a pulse Apoc at 50km will have 80% damage mitigation from the missiles and 100% from the drones?

Thanks for all the help in correcting my perception of Eve!

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#229 - 2013-04-17 08:52:24 UTC
Vitalius D'Fox wrote:
Give me example, where is Raven with his EFT dps is usefull in pvp? And reason, why Raven and not a other BS?

But looks like I've invented a case for new Ravens.
The target should be dangerous in 150+ km range, un-able to use smartbombs, should be big enough and slow like...
SLOWCAT!
Nevertheless, you need to tackle them somehow.
TZeer
BURN EDEN
No Therapy
#230 - 2013-04-17 08:55:40 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Vitalius D'Fox wrote:
Give me example, where is Raven with his EFT dps is usefull in pvp? And reason, why Raven and not a other BS?

But looks like I've invented a case for new Ravens.
The target should be dangerous in 150+ km range, un-able to use smartbombs, should be big enough and slow like...
SLOWCAT!
Nevertheless, you need to tackle them somehow.


And then you are probed out and bubbled before your missiles have even reached its target.... Lol
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#231 - 2013-04-17 08:56:18 UTC
TZeer wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Vitalius D'Fox wrote:
Give me example, where is Raven with his EFT dps is usefull in pvp? And reason, why Raven and not a other BS?

But looks like I've invented a case for new Ravens.
The target should be dangerous in 150+ km range, un-able to use smartbombs, should be big enough and slow like...
SLOWCAT!
Nevertheless, you need to tackle them somehow.


And then you are probed out and bubbled before your missiles have even reached its target.... Lol

And?
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#232 - 2013-04-17 09:05:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Skia Aumer
Skia Aumer wrote:
And?

Alright, I'll say it for you:
And then, your fate is in hands of your FC. If he's stupid enough to locate your blob in the line of alignment of those slowcats - you're doomed. If he called for doctrine with MJD - you can disperse your blob any moment and thus be immune to insta-probing.
What other means do you have to counter slowcats, unless you want to engage in capitals? Well, railguns - but they indeed are less damaging than missiles in this case.
TZeer
BURN EDEN
No Therapy
#233 - 2013-04-17 09:08:04 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
TZeer wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Vitalius D'Fox wrote:
Give me example, where is Raven with his EFT dps is usefull in pvp? And reason, why Raven and not a other BS?

But looks like I've invented a case for new Ravens.
The target should be dangerous in 150+ km range, un-able to use smartbombs, should be big enough and slow like...
SLOWCAT!
Nevertheless, you need to tackle them somehow.


And then you are probed out and bubbled before your missiles have even reached its target.... Lol

And?


Commence warp in, close range, destroy.

On a serious note.

Time to get a warp in should be adjusted to it's former values, ~25 sec.
TZeer
BURN EDEN
No Therapy
#234 - 2013-04-17 09:10:00 UTC  |  Edited by: TZeer
Skia Aumer wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
And?

Alright, I'll say it for you:
And then, your fate is in hands of your FC. If he's stupid enough to locate your blob in the line of alignment of those slowcats - you're doomed. If he called for doctrine with MJD - you can disperse your blob any moment and thus be immune to insta-probing.
What other means do you have to counter slowcats, unless you want to engage in capitals? Well, railguns - but they indeed are less damaging than missiles in this case.


You should try and look on this from a broader perspective. It's not all about blobs and fleets. There's something called small gang warfare. Not sure if you are familiar with it. It's quite fun, you should try it sometime.


And immune to instaprobing? How so, you just blown your load getting out of the first bubble. Every ship is most likely aligned towards the same point. So your blob has just moved 100km, 5 sec later and you are probed again. Then bubbled, no mjd, and a crap tank, and the hostiles are about ot warp on top of you.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#235 - 2013-04-17 09:10:29 UTC
TZeer, I'm confused. What's warping in now? The tackled slow cats or a close range brawler fleet?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#236 - 2013-04-17 09:17:18 UTC
TZeer wrote:
You should try and look on this from a broader perspective. It's not all about blobs and fleets. There's something called small gang warfare. Not sure if you are familiar with it. It's quite fun, you should try it sometime.

Fair enough, now it's your turn to suggest a good role for cruise Raven - from a broad perspective of small gangs.
Vitalius D'Fox
Heavy Metall Squad
#237 - 2013-04-17 09:17:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Vitalius D'Fox
Liang Nuren wrote:

You know, I must not know as much about Eve as I thought I did. The best range fit I have for a bomber in my EFT only puts out ~370 DPS at 130km. I'm not seeing how to get 750 DPS at 249km, especially with a reasonable tank. Can you help me with my fit please?

450 on 100km. not as much as raven. But it faster, and agile, and can use cover cloak.
Cann't do a thing at armed POS, but if pos armed, i prefer better army than Ravens.

Liang Nuren wrote:

I'm also extremely surprised by the assertion that Ravens can't support a carrier. I felt like I could sure have used some Raven support when that Falcon kept decloaking 70-120km from my fleet and we couldn't reliably project damage out that far. I also feel like we might have gotten that Bhaalgorn kill if we'd had better damage projection from inside the RR sphere of the carrier.

It was my misread. (it's hard to speak in english for me) I fixed myself, but it seems it was to late.

Liang Nuren wrote:

And finally, I'm somewhat baffled by the argument that I was looking for surprise damage in a gate fight. What I was actually doing was looking for a way to apply 700+ DPS from outside of anyone's effective engagement range - and potentially from outside the engagement range of the sentries. I've always felt that the 400 DPS of a sniper nado felt kinda weak when plinking away at Rokhs and Abaddons, but maybe you have better luck than I do. :)

High sec sentries?
700 dps on raven is a myth. Like a drone dps.
- They need to fly to target.
- Target must be tackled
- Target must be large.
- When target is gone - your missile did't swith target and become wasted damage.
It's not better than tornado dps.

Liang Nuren wrote:

Here, obviously you know more about Eve than I do. Can you help me out with my math? By my reasoning we should be seeing 641 DPS * 1.316 + 158 = 1001 raw DPS. What damage mitigation percentage should I assume? Maybe we should assume a pulse Apoc at 50km will have 80% damage mitigation from the missiles and 100% from the drones?

Thanks for all the help in correcting my perception of Eve!

-Liang

Like i said earlier. This is EFT dps on large static object.
TZeer
BURN EDEN
No Therapy
#238 - 2013-04-17 09:18:41 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
TZeer, I'm confused. What's warping in now? The tackled slow cats or a close range brawler fleet?

-Liang



Lol

I'm just talking in general.

I don't mind getting into a "pissing" contest about specifics with if's ,but's and when. And this will counter that etc. But tbh, I have better stuff to spend my time on, and I guess you have as well.
TZeer
BURN EDEN
No Therapy
#239 - 2013-04-17 09:20:22 UTC  |  Edited by: TZeer
Skia Aumer wrote:
TZeer wrote:
You should try and look on this from a broader perspective. It's not all about blobs and fleets. There's something called small gang warfare. Not sure if you are familiar with it. It's quite fun, you should try it sometime.

Fair enough, now it's your turn to suggest a good role for cruise Raven - from a broad perspective of small gangs.



Get rid of 5 sec probing.

The changes to the raven is good, no doubt. But if it cannot utilize it's range advantage, the range is kinda just a gimmick.

Large sig radius, no resistance bonus, not a very big buffer tank. Not the ideal ship you wanna throw into a head to head engagement against a coordinated turret fit BS fleet...
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#240 - 2013-04-17 09:23:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Does anyone else read nanophoon all over this thread? Ravens are nice, but nanophoons! (It looks like a nanophoon would land somewehre within 650-750dps with navy cruises... )