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Did the Navy Raven just unseat the Machariel as King of Level 4s?
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Billy Kidd
Breaking Plaid
#1 - 2013-04-16 23:38:50 UTC
Cruise missiles are about to get a 31% increase in DPS and 25% increase in missile velocity.

Cruise missile buff

Machariels currently using 3 tracking enhancers will lose approximately 20% dps at 50km range come patch day.

Tracking enhancer nerf

This means that Navy Ravens will be able to get about 1200 dps with furies and 1015 dps with navy cruises out to max lock range, while having a missile flight delay of only 4.5 seconds to reach 50km. Since the refire rate on cruise launchers is above 5 seconds, you won't have to count volleys at all when shooting at targets under 50km.

The machariel, on the other hand, will have to deal with a loss of 13km falloff, which means a 7% dps loss at 30km, 20% dps loss at 50km, and 32% dps loss at 70km.

Given the fact that the Navy Raven's damage output is completely customizable as well, does this mean that Navy Ravens will once again beat the Machariel as king of Level 4s?
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#2 - 2013-04-17 00:25:48 UTC
Its not all about dps. The mach will still retain its ability to quickly dispose of smaller ships which will make mission times quicker. It will still very quickly minimize the distance to the target which will make the change in falloff negligible. Never used either for PVP so can't comment there.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-04-17 01:29:15 UTC
Oh look, increased exp radius on these cruises, I wasn't aware they needed that one, of all things.

It's just like how they decided Rage Torps needed even larger exp radius too for some reason this past expansion. Figures.

And that TE nerf comes down to ~10% less range for Mach with 3 TEs stacked. It's not end of the world.

Btw, that CNR with 4 faction bcs still comes out to 1k dps with furies, I guess 1.2k is with drones? And speaking of furies, there's a reason ppl don't use them. Their exp radius is larger than torps, and about to get larger.Roll
Kasutra
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#4 - 2013-04-17 01:31:05 UTC
That's a bigger damage boost than I expected. Shocked

Still. The Mach is good for reasons beyond just damage, though, and the CNR's damage application against the smaller ships didn't increase as much as its raw DPS did. The Mach probably hasn't been dethroned, but the gap certainly got a lot smaller...
hellcane
Never Back Down
#5 - 2013-04-17 01:46:34 UTC  |  Edited by: hellcane
Missiles vs turrets still comes down to a few key differences and quality of life issues. As mentioned above, turrets and mach/vargur will still be better(IMO) but missiles will be closer than they used to be.

Now if they can just extend the base range and/or speed of torps.....
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-04-17 01:54:47 UTC
It's stuff like this that makes you wonder if devs actually think things out instead of saying "hey, this might be interesting."

These changes mostly miss the point. The speed increase is in the right direction, but not nearly enough to make it viable. The exp radius nerf is in the wrong direction. Cruise don't need more paper dps, it needs better applied dps.

Cruise boats will be even bigger jokes in pvp, and cherished by noob pve EFT warriors, until the first time they fly a Mach, then they never go back.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-04-17 02:00:11 UTC
10% increased explo radius

hf hitting anything smaller than a battlecruiser.

Art of Explosions
Billy Kidd
Breaking Plaid
#8 - 2013-04-17 02:06:03 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Oh look, increased exp radius on these cruises, I wasn't aware they needed that one, of all things.

It's just like how they decided Rage Torps needed even larger exp radius too for some reason this past expansion. Figures.

And that TE nerf comes down to ~10% less range for Mach with 3 TEs stacked. It's not end of the world.

Btw, that CNR with 4 faction bcs still comes out to 1k dps with furies, I guess 1.2k is with drones? And speaking of furies, there's a reason ppl don't use them. Their exp radius is larger than torps, and about to get larger.Roll


The 1200 dps I got is from fury missiles (no drones) with max skills, 4x CN BCS, and a full set of 5% implants. The explosion radius I'm getting with them is 233.2 using 1x t2 rigor and 2x t1 rigor rigs.

The 1015 dps is from the same setup above but with faction launchers. The explosion radius with that setup is 135.85. This is enough to destroy cruisers in one volley while still doing full damage to battlecruisers and higher.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#9 - 2013-04-17 02:11:58 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
It's stuff like this that makes you wonder if devs actually think things out instead of saying "hey, this might be interesting."

These changes mostly miss the point. The speed increase is in the right direction, but not nearly enough to make it viable. The exp radius nerf is in the wrong direction. Cruise don't need more paper dps, it needs better applied dps.

Cruise boats will be even bigger jokes in pvp, and cherished by noob pve EFT warriors, until the first time they fly a Mach, then they never go back.

i'm calling it: navy scorp with four tps will be a better cruise platform than the cnr post 'buff'.

I should buy an Ishtar.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-04-17 02:20:12 UTC
Billy Kidd wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Oh look, increased exp radius on these cruises, I wasn't aware they needed that one, of all things.

It's just like how they decided Rage Torps needed even larger exp radius too for some reason this past expansion. Figures.

And that TE nerf comes down to ~10% less range for Mach with 3 TEs stacked. It's not end of the world.

Btw, that CNR with 4 faction bcs still comes out to 1k dps with furies, I guess 1.2k is with drones? And speaking of furies, there's a reason ppl don't use them. Their exp radius is larger than torps, and about to get larger.Roll


The 1200 dps I got is from fury missiles (no drones) with max skills, 4x CN BCS, and a full set of 5% implants. The explosion radius I'm getting with them is 233.2 using 1x t2 rigor and 2x t1 rigor rigs.

The 1015 dps is from the same setup above but with faction launchers. The explosion radius with that setup is 135.85. This is enough to destroy cruisers in one volley while still doing full damage to battlecruisers and higher.


If you're going to use hardwiring and t2 ammo, Mach would be at 1.35k dps, range nerf would be mostly countered, all with decent tracking, as ACs track so well to begin with.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#11 - 2013-04-17 02:52:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhilia Mann
Eh, have some numbers. Fit is 3x CN BCU; 4 would obviously help. No painter; assuming a MJD fit. Rigs are 2x rigor IIs 1 flare I. Targets are Angel and Gurista to get a range of possible values.

738 fury cruise / .95 RoF increase = 777

777 * 1.25 damage increase = 971

2 rigor IIs, 1 flare I.

explosion velocity 100.05

explosion radius 247.68 * 1.1 increase = 272.45


target: Gist General

sig: 320
orbit velocity: 175

final damage: 916


target: Pith Massacrer

sig: 410
orbit velocity: 140

final damage: 971


target: Gistum Marauder

sig: 120
orbit velocity: 225

final damage: 221


target: Pithum Eraser

sig: 155
orbit velocity: 180

final damage: 341

==========================

606 CN cruise / .95 RoF increase = 638

638 * 1.25 damage increase = 798

2 rigor IIs, 1 flare I.

explosion velocity 119.02

explosion radius 144 * 1.1 increase = 158.4


target: Gist General

sig: 320
orbit velocity: 175

final damage: 798


target: Pith Massacrer

sig: 410
orbit velocity: 140

final damage: 798


target: Gistum Marauder

sig: 120
orbit velocity: 225

final damage: 356


target: Pithum Eraser

sig: 155
orbit velocity: 180

final damage: 543


target: Gistii Impaler

sig: 35
orbit velocity: 275

final damage: 101


target: Pithi Demolisher

sig: 38
orbit velocity: 220

final damage: 132

==========================

527 precision cruise / .95 RoF increase = 555

555 * 1.25 damage increase = 694

2 rigor IIs, 1 flare I.

explosion velocity 143.175

explosion radius 129.6 * 1.1 increase = 142.56


target: Gistum Marauder

sig: 120
orbit velocity: 225

final damage: 439


target: Pithum Eraser

sig: 155
orbit velocity: 180

final damage: 624


target: Gistii Impaler

sig: 35
orbit velocity: 275

final damage: 153


target: Pithi Demolisher

sig: 38
orbit velocity: 220

final damage: 185

==========================

Summary: I'd say this is a pretty significant boost to the CNR, but I'd still take a Machariel. The CNR is getting way more competitive though, and if you're somewhat able to manage range and snipe frigs at range with sentries it could be a very valid mission runner -- much more so than today.

If -- and it's obviously a big, speculative if -- the fleet phoon gets modeled on the CNR with the new Typhoon bonus it might rip things apart in a serious way.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#12 - 2013-04-17 03:09:00 UTC
hm..would like to see fleet pest more potent too..being token battleship is sad imo.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Starlight Kouvo
Howl at the Moon
#13 - 2013-04-17 07:54:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Starlight Kouvo
I ran a lot of Lvl 4's in a Scorpion Navy Issue with pretty much max missile skills and cruise missiles and while it was pretty good at battlecruisers and up, anything smaller was just a no go except for destroyers. I found I had to run a 2nd ship (Drake) to kill frigates and cruisers.

The paper dps just does not equate to mission dps I found.

I have now switched to a Nightmare and even with only T1 Large Pulse or Faction Large Pulse it has no problems clearing level 4's solo and much quicker than the Scorpion and can pop frigates in 1 to 3 shots up to 60km away which the SNI could never do with cruise missiles.

Missiles are definitely great as a starting character for PVE.
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2013-04-17 08:47:26 UTC
All bets are off until the faction ships are 'rebalanced'. I have a feeling bad things are in store for the Mach. The RIfter was once a King and we've seen how it was dealt with.

I like these changes for the standard Raven. The extra mid it's getting will mean not having to give up tank or prop mod to fit a target painter.

....or maybe they're doing that so it can fit a module to offset some sort of "tracking disruption' Ugh
Turelus
Utassi Security
#15 - 2013-04-17 10:09:16 UTC
You guys should really talk about this in the thread about changes, CCP are reading that and can take the feedback to modify things.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2013-04-17 10:13:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Klymer
I don't think this falls under feedback as much as it does theorycrafting and in that regard it should probably go in S&M.

...that's S&M as in Ships and Modules lol
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-04-17 10:55:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Gimme more Cynos
You should be more worried about the Phoon fleet issue. If it will remain with the same bonus', while getting a 7th launcherslot, it is going to beat the CNR.

And yes, if the CNR remains with current bonus', it will be able to compete well with the mach. Slightly less dps than the mach, and with slight problems shooting small stuff, but able to choose its damage type completely, and to apply it's damage up to all mission NPC's regardless of range.

The mach will always lose some dmg due to falloff and sometimes due to NPC's resistances (shooting with other ammo than hail hurts dps).

PS: CNR without TP is doing it wrong. Noone needs MJD sniping in missions. Especially not without TP's. What?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#18 - 2013-04-17 12:50:29 UTC
Billy Kidd wrote:
Cruise missiles are about to get a 31% increase in DPS and 25% increase in missile velocity.

Cruise missile buff

Machariels currently using 3 tracking enhancers will lose approximately 20% dps at 50km range come patch day.

Tracking enhancer nerf

This means that Navy Ravens will be able to get about 1200 dps with furies and 1015 dps with navy cruises out to max lock range, while having a missile flight delay of only 4.5 seconds to reach 50km. Since the refire rate on cruise launchers is above 5 seconds, you won't have to count volleys at all when shooting at targets under 50km.

The machariel, on the other hand, will have to deal with a loss of 13km falloff, which means a 7% dps loss at 30km, 20% dps loss at 50km, and 32% dps loss at 70km.

Given the fact that the Navy Raven's damage output is completely customizable as well, does this mean that Navy Ravens will once again beat the Machariel as king of Level 4s?



Answer is:

C. Typhoon .
mama guru
Yazatas.
#19 - 2013-04-17 14:02:19 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Billy Kidd wrote:
Cruise missiles are about to get a 31% increase in DPS and 25% increase in missile velocity.

Cruise missile buff

Machariels currently using 3 tracking enhancers will lose approximately 20% dps at 50km range come patch day.

Tracking enhancer nerf

This means that Navy Ravens will be able to get about 1200 dps with furies and 1015 dps with navy cruises out to max lock range, while having a missile flight delay of only 4.5 seconds to reach 50km. Since the refire rate on cruise launchers is above 5 seconds, you won't have to count volleys at all when shooting at targets under 50km.

The machariel, on the other hand, will have to deal with a loss of 13km falloff, which means a 7% dps loss at 30km, 20% dps loss at 50km, and 32% dps loss at 70km.

Given the fact that the Navy Raven's damage output is completely customizable as well, does this mean that Navy Ravens will once again beat the Machariel as king of Level 4s?



Answer is:

C. Typhoon .



Probably this, if the Nphoon gets a 25% prescision bonus it will be superior to any other missile platform.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#20 - 2013-04-17 20:10:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
10% increased explo radius

hf hitting anything smaller than a battlecruiser.

I currently hit frigates very easy with cruise missiles. I don't see a 10% increase in explosion radius causing a problem. All it really does is void the 25% damage increase when targeting smaller ships. i am sure I will still 1 volley cruisers and destroyers. Frigates can be dealt with using precision missiles or drones. I don't see an issue here.

Rigor rigs are to a missile boat what tracking enhancers are to the Mach. They help you hit the small targets.

A CNR with 2 T2 rigor rigs and 1 T2 Flare rig firing precision cruise missiles can kill elite frigs just as easy as a 800mm AC Mach can. And they can not get under the guns of a CNR. The Mach is an amazing ship, but the CNR is very close to it, if fit properly. Only real advantage the Mach has is its speed.

I already run missions in a typhoon split weapon systems and all. I enjoy it, does missions faster than my Raven, but with a little more micro management. 3 weapon systems on one ship takes some getting used to. I am really looking forward to how the phoon works out as a dedicated missile boat.
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