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with all this talk about mwd's

Author
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#1 - 2013-04-15 14:00:08 UTC
i love the scram turning it off. but once gets within range and hits the scram, its deffinate. there is no counter, no % chance to NOT work, no counter against it.

how about this (and i fly inties, so i know the implications):

new rigs or mods that will allow a % chance to not shut off your mwd. warping is still impossible, but the mwd might still function. the % would be rerolled every scram cycle.

10% on rigs, 15% on t2 rgs
20% chance on the low mods, 25% on the t2.

these wouldnt mess up your scan reso like warp stabs.
maybe call them microwarp stabs.
it would allow a new dynamic. most of the time you catch your foe, sometimes he gets away..
stacking penalty still applies.
Akuyaku
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-04-15 14:06:09 UTC
The thing you are looking for is called an "afterburner".
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#3 - 2013-04-15 14:20:17 UTC
you forgot to say "drum roll"... usually follow funny jokes (and maybe your not so funny joke.)

i know the diff between the 2. i almost run burners exclusively for the lower sig radius and so it doesnt get shut off, but alliance and null sec rules dictate otherwise.

webs were dropped to 60% to allow for a more dynamic pvp experience and to allow some to escape and others to perrish. what i am proposing would do the same.

Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-04-15 14:30:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
Nah mwd's are mostly fine they could use some work on making T2's better than the meta variations for sure and maybe lower the sig penalty aswell to help attack ships and low sig ships from being popped so easy.

Afterburners are the mods that need some work really the have the same mass penalty as mwds but give a lot less in return which is strange especially as AB's are normally used on orbiting frigs/on some cruisers.
- mass reduction to increase agility and speed
- web resistance bonus to give people a reason to use it at all levels/better brawling mod
- easier fittings would be nice to allow more dual prop setups on tight ships.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#5 - 2013-04-15 14:36:37 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
Nah mwd's are mostly fine they could use some work on making T2's better than the meta variations for sure and maybe lower the sig penalty aswell to help attack ships and low sig ships from being popped so easy.

Afterburners are the mods that need some work really the have the same mass penalty as mwds but give a lot less in return which is strange especially as AB's are normally used on orbiting frigs/on some cruisers.
- mass reduction to increase agility and speed
- web resistance bonus to give people a reason to use it at all levels/better brawling mod
- easier fittings would be nice to allow more dual prop setups on tight ships.



kewl, topic derailed.

this is about the scrams and mods to counter their effect on a % chance.

im all for a burner discussion somewhere else.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-04-15 14:49:04 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
Nah mwd's are mostly fine they could use some work on making T2's better than the meta variations for sure and maybe lower the sig penalty aswell to help attack ships and low sig ships from being popped so easy.

Afterburners are the mods that need some work really the have the same mass penalty as mwds but give a lot less in return which is strange especially as AB's are normally used on orbiting frigs/on some cruisers.
- mass reduction to increase agility and speed
- web resistance bonus to give people a reason to use it at all levels/better brawling mod
- easier fittings would be nice to allow more dual prop setups on tight ships.



kewl, topic derailed.

this is about the scrams and mods to counter their effect on a % chance.

im all for a burner discussion somewhere else.


Well you're idea is going nowhere and i did mention mwd's to begin with plus you mentioned webs and the other guy mentioned AB's ...

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#7 - 2013-04-15 15:26:17 UTC
true, but it was only as a reference towards the fact. i would love to hear your idea on the burners tho cause im a huge burner fan.

Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-04-15 15:37:27 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
true, but it was only as a reference towards the fact. i would love to hear your idea on the burners tho cause im a huge burner fan.




well the problem atm with them is they reduce your agility as much as mwd's which in itself isn't bad as you can turn it off whilst turning but the only reason to use the AB is to orbit close range to reduce damage through speed + low sig but its impractical to expect a frig to do this as they are too quick for the cycle to finish to allow for the mass penalty to disappear.

so the frig slows down to turn +combined with a web really kills its speed and this is compounded further up the class you go as they are slower too begin with.

only way to make them more viable is to reduce the agility penalty and to make them resistant to webs.
And the reduced mass would help with boosting its speed bonus although maybe they could buff that a bit too to help.
And maybe the different meta variations could affect these differently like more agility or more base speed

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#9 - 2013-04-15 19:52:08 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
Nah mwd's are mostly fine they could use some work on making T2's better than the meta variations for sure and maybe lower the sig penalty aswell to help attack ships and low sig ships from being popped so easy.

Afterburners are the mods that need some work really the have the same mass penalty as mwds but give a lot less in return which is strange especially as AB's are normally used on orbiting frigs/on some cruisers.
- mass reduction to increase agility and speed
- web resistance bonus to give people a reason to use it at all levels/better brawling mod
- easier fittings would be nice to allow more dual prop setups on tight ships.


This.

There are counters to scrams which are just fine (you may not like them but they are available). If your alliance requires MWD to be fit then either fit one, convince them to change or change to another alliance.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#10 - 2013-04-15 20:09:30 UTC
or make a suggestion on an ideas forum and see where it goes.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#11 - 2013-04-15 23:52:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Mole Guy wrote:
i know the diff between the 2. i almost run burners exclusively for the lower sig radius and so it doesnt get shut off, but alliance and null sec rules dictate otherwise.



0.0 dictates it because chances are good a fleet will see a bubble at some point. MWD burns through bubbles faster. No one wants to wait for 100 bs' to be crawling to clear these bubbles AB powered. And if its no titan you are humping to the target system (or running like rats from a fire) you don't want to be a slow poke ship to be picked off as a poorly backed up straggler (all your boys with MWD are way ahead of you).

Not in fleet fit or else fleet...ab can be run if so desired. You will just be slower burning bubbles met on the way. Or dual prop if you can to get the best of both worlds.
Akuyaku
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-04-16 00:19:21 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
dual prop

This is what I was getting at with the afterburners comment.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#13 - 2013-04-16 01:55:02 UTC
OP is looking for counters that already exist.

Warp Core Stabilizers: counters 1 point of warp disruption per mod (note: disruptors apply 1 point, scramblers apply 2).
ECM: jams a target and prevents it from targeting anything for 20 seconds.
Death: you can't really tackle anything if you are dead, now can you?
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2013-04-16 04:07:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Valleria Darkmoon
The cycle time on a warp scrambler is only 5 seconds, meaning that even with a paltry 10% chance you can pretty much rely on getting your MWD back in under a minute. Probably still too late in an inty if it takes that long but there are plenty of other ships that fit MWDs that can undo all the hard work of the scramming ship catching a faster opponent by sheer chance.

You're also talking about a 25% chance on a T2 low module, that means an MWD cycle about every 20 seconds more or less depending on how much RNG likes you. In addition to everything that has already been said suggesting that this is a bad idea, it's also too reliable considering the risk one has to take to scram ships as opposed to using a long point.

EDIT: are you also supposed to be able to stack them because a couple of mods and a couple rigs on a fleet interceptor like an ares and you can almost not even worry about getting scrammed considering how likely it would be that you'll get your MWD back on the next cycle assuming it works at all the first time.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.

Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#15 - 2013-04-16 13:58:26 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
OP is looking for counters that already exist.

Warp Core Stabilizers: counters 1 point of warp disruption per mod (note: disruptors apply 1 point, scramblers apply 2).
ECM: jams a target and prevents it from targeting anything for 20 seconds.
Death: you can't really tackle anything if you are dead, now can you?



i think you misread in your attempt to make me look foolish

ccp saw the web as OP and toned it down some years ago for a more dynamic play style. webs went from 90% (all webs) to 60% or less).
mwd's altho i hate em, could be given a chance to break through the interference, reharmonize and turn back on. i am not concerned with the % chance, i am more interested in the fact that we can gain that ability through mods or rigs or even a skill.
MWD stabilization- 2% chance per level to recalibrate your mwd and gain the ability to turn it on
req: high speed man-V

a warp stab does nothing to break a scrams hold on an mwd. you would have to run 2 to protect yourself and be able to warp but we arent talking about warping, and what if you are the aggressor? now you have a -50% scan reso and STILL no mwd.

a rig in the low, now you have a 5% or 10% or something chance.
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#16 - 2013-04-16 14:11:58 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
i love the scram turning it off. but once gets within range and hits the scram, its deffinate. there is no counter, no % chance to NOT work, no counter against it.

how about this (and i fly inties, so i know the implications):

new rigs or mods that will allow a % chance to not shut off your mwd. warping is still impossible, but the mwd might still function. the % would be rerolled every scram cycle.

10% on rigs, 15% on t2 rgs
20% chance on the low mods, 25% on the t2.

these wouldnt mess up your scan reso like warp stabs.
maybe call them microwarp stabs.
it would allow a new dynamic. most of the time you catch your foe, sometimes he gets away..
stacking penalty still applies.


There are currently two solutions for your issue:
a) Fit a web to hover out of scram range of your enemy.
b) Fit an AB in addition to your MWD. Much more powerful then a)

Unfortunatelly we still have many ships which have only two med slots making boths counters not usable on them.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#17 - 2013-04-16 14:26:24 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:

i know the diff between the 2. i almost run burners exclusively for the lower sig radius and so it doesnt get shut off, but alliance and null sec rules dictate otherwise.


Not like we can change EVE mechanics to match some null sec alliance rules...

MWD/AB/SCRAMB dynamics seems balanced to me. Any direct or indirect buff to MWD should be balanced with a relevant reduction for his speed bonus or a buff to MWD.
Problem is MWD: you could just remove it from the game and replace with a new tier of AB, would be fine.

In general, I see the good part of having more unpredictable variables in the equation, however I think actually in EVE the chances to evade fights are already too many, and "crowd control" should be buffed
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-04-16 14:46:45 UTC
You say this topic isn't about burners but actually it is.

First, everything in eve doesn't have an exact counter, and it doesn't need it.

What you are asking for is akin to "having your cake and eating it too" which is most definitely NOT an EVE design idea.

Your "counter" in this case happens at the fitting screen. It comes down to another great EVE concept, choices and consequences. You can choose a MWD, which gives you more speed, but you can get caught. Or an AB which leaves you potentially too slow, but better potential for escaping a scram.

You can also choose a web, to hopefully allow you to coast outside scram range

Or ECM to try and break the lock

Or ECM drones. Which becomes another choice/consequence decision. Do I pack ECM drones, or damage drones. One might help me get away, while the other may add enough dps that I can kill my target instead of worrying about getting away.


Bottom line, IMO this mechanic is working as intended. Fit your ships, make your choice, deal with the consequences.
Friggz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-04-16 14:59:18 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
Nah mwd's are mostly fine they could use some work on making T2's better than the meta variations for sure and maybe lower the sig penalty aswell to help attack ships and low sig ships from being popped so easy.

Afterburners are the mods that need some work really the have the same mass penalty as mwds but give a lot less in return which is strange especially as AB's are normally used on orbiting frigs/on some cruisers.
- mass reduction to increase agility and speed
- web resistance bonus to give people a reason to use it at all levels/better brawling mod
- easier fittings would be nice to allow more dual prop setups on tight ships.



kewl, topic derailed.

this is about the scrams and mods to counter their effect on a % chance.

im all for a burner discussion somewhere else.


Scrams shutting off MWDs are part of the balance between MWDs and ABs, as well as the balance between scrams and disruptors. You can't just put your fingers in your ears and say "I'm not listening" when people point out how your changes have effects down the line. Changing one thing can and does effect other things in EvE.

Personally I don't see what your suggestion adds to the game other than an unneeded luck factor deciding fights. I think the decision between AB and MWD is a fairly balanced one as it stands.
Wolf Kyosuke
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-04-16 15:40:46 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
you forgot to say "drum roll"... usually follow funny jokes (and maybe your not so funny joke.)

i know the diff between the 2. i almost run burners exclusively for the lower sig radius and so it doesnt get shut off, but alliance and null sec rules dictate otherwise.

webs were dropped to 60% to allow for a more dynamic pvp experience and to allow some to escape and others to perrish. what i am proposing would do the same.



Webs were reduced during the nano nerf from 90% to 50%-60% partly because of the huge speed reduction ships were also getting. 90% would have made them incredibly overpowered.

I could legitimately see allowing warp core stabs allowing a mwd to continue to run, but otherwise I would say that it's a balanced mechanic. With a MWD you really should be going fast enough to avoid scrams most of the time anyways in a small ship and being that you don't actually see the cycle time of a module your opponent is using, a chance based system would be nearly useless unless you intend on trying to activate the module constantly.
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